Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:02 am

Malcolm wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
That's all Mahāmudra is.



Seems like a tricky way of seeing it, realization of the nature of mind would always be non-gradual wouldn't it? Sustaining that realization on the other hand would have to be gradual for the vast majority of folks.


No. Once you have seen the nature of the mind, that is all there is to do.


If that's all there was to do you'd be done with any and all formal practice after a successful introduction or pointing out. Maybe that's true for a very small percentage, but seems very unlikely for most. Even Garab Dorje's Three Statements are more than just one thing to do!
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby conebeckham » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:02 am

Matt J wrote:Why do you say that?

conebeckham wrote:Certainly, for Dzogchen, we can say this...but I think the "referent" pointed out in Dzogchen is, maybe, potentially, a bit different.

I'm parroting Kongtrul. Everything up to SemDe does not go "beyond mind." longDe, and especially MenNgakDe (Nyingthik), do, in fact, Go "beyond mind." I believe this to be a correct statement, but I choose not to elaborate further.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
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དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Justmeagain » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:56 pm

I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!

Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:14 pm

Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!

Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?


Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Justmeagain » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!

Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?


Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.


I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:09 pm

Justmeagain wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!

Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?


Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.


I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?


Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Justmeagain » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.


I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?


Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.


And what is the nature of this appearance? I'd say Emptiness has the appearance of a lack of inherent existence. But maybe thats pushing it somewhat!

How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Astus » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:40 pm

Justmeagain wrote:How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?


One can find common elements between the Great Seal and Just Sitting. Both are meant as the realisation of the ultimate truth, for instance. Both view the ultimate wisdom as the absence of attachment and detachment. Both see beings as originally enlightened and appearances as originally pure.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:48 pm

Justmeagain wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:
I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?


Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.


And what is the nature of this appearance? I'd say Emptiness has the appearance of a lack of inherent existence. But maybe thats pushing it somewhat!

How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?


Emptiness and luminosity ('od gsal) are synonyms. When one is in the experience of emptiness or luminosity there are no appearances. In Mahāmudra there are appearances. Which appearances? The appearances of the world.
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