Re: Thamal gyi shepa vs. baby rigpa vs. rigpa (etc.)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:21 pm
andrew108, deepbluehum: thank you! I've been confused by the terminology used in books, but I will let that go.
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In other words, it's all part of the process.During the ensuing perceptions, you perceive them with a sense of delight, but for the most part they are a solid reality.
During the ensuing certainty, whenever you embrace it with a mindful presence, you have an experience of aware emptiness, but it is accompanied by the attitude of thinking, "This is empty! This is a mental experience!"
Yes, but it would seem I was too dense to have noticed anything during it . More obscuration clearing for me! (Also, an admission: I only tuned in for a few of the sessions, including the D.I. I had trouble following a lot of it, and since the timing was very inconvenient, I stopped attending. )underthetree wrote:Out of interest, did you follow ChNNR's last retreat? If so, you received direct introduction.
Thank you, I may do that. Right now it seems I'm more on track to practice Mahamudra, and I may want to avoid mixing up my instructions. Should I practice this anyway?I would suggest downloading the Guruyoga book here: http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... tail&p=455. Then you'd have a complete practice to be getting on with. Having spent quite a bit of fruitful time trying to extrapolate methods etc from books for which I didn't have transmission or lung, I can report that the difference is immense.
Well, it works.monktastic wrote:Should I practice this anyway?
In the unlikely event that anyone else was as confused as I was about the above, I'd like to mention that from reading more Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, it's a little more clear. The "nondual" in "nondual awareness" when used for baby rigpa refers primarily to the mode of recognition of awareness itself:monktastic wrote:Rigpa, "ordinary mind," and "the natural state" are all called "non-dual", and are sometimes used interchangeably. But rigpa is legitimately non-dual in the sense that authentic recognition of it precludes the experience of any form of duality. The same cannot be said of "the natural state," where one is simply allowing dualities to subside by not grasping them. That's why I've been so utterly confused. The meaning of "non-dual" in those cases is very different.
This is similar to the usage of "self-aware" in Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's "self-aware presence of mind." This phrasing is less difficult for me, since it is distinct from the description of rigpa as non-dual. Gradually, such non-dual awareness does lead to non-dual perception, but that's not until much later (the completion of the yoga of one-pointedness).Unless we look into the nature of mind we will never recognize it. But this is true only in the beginning. Once you grow more familiar with it, there is no need to look here or there, or to do anything. Recognition happens spontaneously because of being used to recognizing, to some extent. When there is a subject and object in the recognition, this is none other than dualistic mind.
Indeed it is crucial, and I'm glad I've resolved it for myself. Thanks for all the help! (And in particular, underthetree, thank you for the "relax" guidance. It has really revamped my practice.The crucial difference between fruitless states of meditation and true meditation is the presence of this awake and relaxed self-awareness of the mind, because only in this state of recollection is it possible for our mind to change over from mere mental calm to intuitive insight into its own true nature.
Having had the good fortune to spend time with teachers and Rinpoches in the mean time, I would go back and answer myself something like this:monktastic wrote:Appearances seem to be undefinable, transient, self-liberating "happenings" that appear to this awareness, as opposed to being made of it. Because it still feels like awareness is apprehending appearances, this is dualistic, and as such cannot be a recognition of rigpa. I don't conceive of awareness as a characterizable thing, but it feels like a subject of experience. Does this duality need to collapse before it can be said that one is practicing in the natural state? In other words, must one first have a direct experience that phenomena are manifestations of rigpa and thus indistinct from it? In some readings of texts, it seems like the answer is yes, and in others, maybe not.
This confused me a great deal, the fact that various teachers(i.e...the brothers) seemed to talk about different rigpa's from the one introduced say by CNNr.asunthatneversets wrote:Tsoknyi Rinpoche (among other teachers) say that one's mere clarity [cognizance] which registers whether there is stillness or movement [of mind, etc.] is referred to as rig pa. However it isn't rigpa in the sense of rang byung rig pa which arises as knowledge of primordial wisdom [ye shes], that is spoken of in Dzogpa Chenpo.
The former is the mere clarity of mind (encountered in śamatha etc.), Dudjom Lingpa refers to clarity as the 'conventional nature of mind' (as opposed to the true nature of mind i.e. sems nyid). The latter results from recognizing the nature of mind [sems nyid]. The latter rigpa is the true meditation, Tsoknyi Rinpoche goes on to say that we may meditate for an hour and only glimpse our nature (which is the actual meditation) for 3 or 4 seconds. The more we practice the more frequent those flashes or instances will become, the point is to familiarize with that nature and allow those moments to become prolonged.
Jean-Luc Achard says that in this sense, our rigpa is (at first) an impermanent occurrence which fluctuates while on the path. When we no longer fluctuate back and forth between rigpa and mind we are Buddhas.
Personally I have found some kind of instructions very useful and some very confusing. As an example, some that specifically differentiate real and not not-real rigpa only snag my tendency to doubt things, triggers mental checking and worrying and so drags me firmly into dualistic mind. But I have been given instructions that bypass that completely - instructions that might not work at all for someone with a different personality. So I would venture that some instructions are not suitable for everyone - and that's something only a proper teacher can overcome.monktastic wrote:That reminds me: I would also strongly caution myself not to take too seriously the advice of people who are not teachers.
This is not a dig at you, Kyle; it is probably just my own constitution that makes it such that my practice is typically not helped by such posts -- which is the key thing for me, after all. Whereas a binary model of rigpa (practice) may help some students, my teacher has made it abundantly clear that this is not helpful for others.
Edit: and, likewise, I should have made it more clear that the response I gave in my previous post is meant for the particular situation I was in. I hope nobody else will consider it advice from me to them.
As it happens, Tsoknyi Rinpoche is one of the Rinpoches I had the good fortune (i.e., made the strong effort) to meet and do a short retreat with. What you say is clear from TUR and all his sons, I think. A succinct description from TUR:asunthatneversets wrote:Tsoknyi Rinpoche (among other teachers) say that one's mere clarity [cognizance] which registers whether there is stillness or movement [of mind, etc.] is referred to as rig pa. However it isn't rigpa in the sense of rang byung rig pa which arises as knowledge of primordial wisdom [ye shes], that is spoken of in Dzogpa Chenpo.
Being able to notice its thought-occurrence and stillness doesn’t mean one knows the real nature of this mind. It is simply the ability to detect when there are thoughts and when there is not the presence and absence of thought. This is called ‘knowing the character of the mind’. It is not knowing buddha nature. Sometimes your attention keeps still and sometimes it moves around. As long as you merely keep an eye on whether there is thinking or stillness and never go beyond this exercise, you will not reach enlightenment.
The teacher will then give the next instruction, saying, “Now, don’t just notice whether there is stillness or thought occurrence. When there is thinking, look into the thinker. When there is stillness, look into what feels the stillness.”
The disciple will return entirely bewildered and say, “When I look into what feels the stillness, I don’t find anything whatsoever. When the thinking occurs and I look into what thinks, I don’t find any ‘thing’ either. Not only that, but both the thinking and the feeling of stillness disappear. Now what am I supposed to do? Before, I could take charge of something. I could identify the thinking and the stillness. But it’s not like that anymore. When I look into what thinks, the thinker vanishes. When I look into what is still, that’s also gone. I’m at a complete loss. I have lost both the thinker and that which feels still.”
The teacher will reply, “No, you are not at all at a complete loss. Now you have arrived at Mahamudra, at the nature of mind. You need to train in this for months and years. Before, you were only concerned with the manifestation, not with the nature. Now the manifestation has vanished. What is left is the nature itself.” That is the traditional way of pointing out Mahamudra.
A good point, an other is to stick with the teachings you get from the master who's teaching you are actually applying. It actually creates confusion trying to recognise rigpa and at the same time reading a lot of books about it.In the bone yard wrote: If we are trying to reach the Path we should stick to teachings on how to get there first.
heart wrote:A good point, an other is to stick with the teachings you get from the master who's teaching you are actually applying. It actually creates confusion trying to recognise rigpa and at the same time reading a lot of books about it.In the bone yard wrote: If we are trying to reach the Path we should stick to teachings on how to get there first.
I once had a group interview with Drubwang Rinpoche and one of the older practitioners in our group asked the following question: "How do we manage to rest in rigpa during our everyday activities?" Drubwnag Rinpoche answered: "Find a Guru and request these teachings from him. Do anything he ask of you. If you ask many masters a question such as this about the natural state one you will get many different answers, some will say it like this and some will say it is like that and you will just end up more confused then what you were from the beginning."
/magnus
These words from Gyatrul Rinpoche's commentary on Padmasambhava's "Natural Liberation" are relevant:monktastic wrote:I can differentiate between mind and contents, and do not think of mind as some thing or state, but a difficulty remains:
I don't experience appearances as themselves being awareness (or "manifestations of" it). I do experience that "mind itself" is nothing but an empty cognizance. Appearances seem to be undefinable, transient, self-liberating "happenings" that appear to this awareness, as opposed to being made of it. Because it still feels like awareness is apprehending appearances, this is dualistic, and as such cannot be a recognition of rigpa. I don't conceive of awareness as a characterizable thing, but it feels like a subject of experience. Does this duality need to collapse before it can be said that one is practicing in the natural state? In other words, must one first have a direct experience that phenomena are manifestations of rigpa and thus indistinct from it? In some readings of texts, it seems like the answer is yes, and in others, maybe not.
Maybe I'm just nitpicking details. If this duality will collapse on its own over time, that's fine. It's just that every time I come across the term "nondual awareness" in Mahamudra manuals to describe the natural state, I suspect I'm a long way off from even beginning.
Thanks to others here who have reminded that practice and path are highly individual.However, the essential point is that the pupils are not all the same. For us now, appearances and awareness seem to be separate. But in this phase of practice [note: referring to rigpa practice], for some people, appearances and mind merge. No longer does awareness seem to be inside, while appearances are apart, on the outside.
As my teacher beautifully puts it: self-liberation is recognition [of rigpa] and recognition expresses itself as self-liberation.Knowledge of the state of self-liberation is the foundation of the practice of Dzogchen.
The most advanced capacity of self-liberation is called Rangdrol ... Here the illusory separation of subject and object collapses of itself, and one's habitual vision, the limited cage, the trap of ego, opens out into the spacious vision of what is.