Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

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omph
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Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by omph »

When I review the outline of Lamrim (which I understand is recognized by the Gelupka, Kagyu and Nyigma schools), I do not see any mention of Mahamudra (or Dzogchen for that matter). Does it fall into the "Emptiness Section" in the "Great Scope"?
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Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

catlady2112 wrote:When I review the outline of Lamrim (which I understand is recognized by the Gelupka, Kagyu and Nyigma schools), I do not see any mention of Mahamudra (or Dzogchen for that matter).
Lam Rim is Mahayana practice. How quickly they get into tantra & Mahamudra depends on the school. Gelugpas have extensive academic and Paramitayana practices (such as Shantideva), then tantra and Mahamudra. Kagyus get into tantra quite quickly, relatively speaking, and then Mahamudra. Nyingma have a very abbreviated Lam Rim and get into tantra & Dzogchen.
Does it fall into the "Emptiness Section" in the "Great Scope"?
Yes, they are emptiness practices.

Those are overly simplistic answers to you question, and as such not 100% accurate, but it is close enough to give you some perspective.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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conebeckham
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Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by conebeckham »

From among the Paramitas, which are the basic instructions on the path of great scope, or Mahayana, there is the Paramita of Prajna, or "wisdom." This wisdom can be subdivided into two- the wisdom of lack of phenomenal identity, and the lack of self-identity. Within that latter topic, one finds various approaches-in mainstream Gelukpa approach, one relies on a variety of analytical approaches. The other schools use these analyses, as well. That is mainstream Mahayana.

Mahamudra and Dzogchen fall in this category, relating to the wisdom of absence of identity, and in particular, to the cognizant-yet-empty Nature of Mind. Although in analysis, self or mind cannot be found, at the same time this does not resolve into a blank nothingness. Although mind cannot be found, Mind's Nature, as the cognizant awareness, able to know, cannot be denied. This is the basis of Mahamudra, and of Dzogchen, though these practices and instructions are not solely part of the Paramitayana. They are Tantric.

In Paramitayana prajna practice, one rests after the "non-finding," non-identity, while in mahamudra and Dzogchen, one rests in Mind's Nature. Some say an "idea" of emptiness should be "held," as a reminder, while those who practice Mahamudra and Dzogchen do not recommend an "idea" of emptiness.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Yes, as Cone says, there are two types of Mahamudra:

The Mahayana/Paramitayana kind, and
The Vajrayana/tantric kind.

They are the same but different. The analogy I like to use is the difference between an acoustic guitar and an electric guitar. They're basically the same, but one has a whole lot more 'oomph' to it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by Jinzang »

Sutra mahamudra is non-conceptual meditation on the nature of phenomena. If you read Atisha's Lamp on the Path, you will see that this sort of non-conceptual meditation is discussed in verses 54-58, even if the term mahamudra is not used.

Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche quoted Atisha while teaching on mahmudra: "Conceptualization is great ignorance and makes one fall into the ocean of samsara."
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
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Astus
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Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by Astus »

"Thus, the explicit teaching of this Mahamudra is the Madhyamaka of emptiness free from discursiveness as taught in the sutra system. Ultimately, Maitrıpa’s key notion of “mental nonengagement” or “mental disengagement” is nothing but the subjective side of what is called “freedom from discursiveness.” The only way in which the mind can engage in this “object”—the absence of discursiveness— is precisely by not engaging in or fueling any discursiveness, thus letting it naturally settle on its own accord. In other words, the absence of reference points can be realized only by a nonreferential mind, since this is the only perceptual mode that exactly corresponds to it. This is stated many times in the sutras."
(Center of the Sunlit Sky, p. 55)

Brunnhölzl goes through the subject of Mahamudra's relation to Madhyamaka in that chapter on "The Transmission of Madhyamaka from India to Tibet". Also, if you look at the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, Gampopa brings up Mahamudra where he is discussing the practice of prajnaparamita.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Brunnhölzl goes through the subject of Mahamudra's relation to Madhyamaka in that chapter on "The Transmission of Madhyamaka from India to Tibet".
Which book of Brunnhölzl's?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Astus
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Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by Astus »

smcj wrote:Which book of Brunnhölzl's?
It's the Center of the Sunlit Sky that I quoted from.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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conebeckham
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Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Post by conebeckham »

So, I think we've answered the Question, about where Mahamudra fits into the Lam Rim outline.
But just one more slightly tangential, and slightly not, point.....Mahamudra, and in fact "Prajna," must embrace all the other Paramitas, as well, in order for them to be "perfect."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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