Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

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Sönam
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Sönam » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:38 am

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby thigle » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:33 am


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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby conebeckham » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:54 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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monktastic
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby monktastic » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:24 pm

I am in agreement with cone. To go from stage three to four would be to say "I used to see that all concepts are empty, but now I again prefer to grasp this specific set of concepts regarding appearances" (namely, that they must be "backed" by "real objects"). This doesn't sound like progress.

In stage three (as I understand it), the person fully well appreciates the beauty and value of naturalism and the scientific method, but doesn't insist that they are absolute truth. Instead, there is a kind of fluidity: if circumstances change, then my model is free to change with it. Although objects have followed well-defined patterns thus far, there is no inherent reason why they must continue to do so. If I wake up one day into a universe that has entirely different apparent rules, I am not forced to interpret them in terms of present rules (e.g., matter; energy; brains), any more than I'm forced to interpret present observations in terms of a dream I had last night.

The way I like to think of it is that although there may be scientific "laws", there is no executive branch anywhere to "enforce" them. Or: past performance is no guarantee of future results. :tongue:
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa

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monktastic
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby monktastic » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:43 pm

I would also like to apologize, because my tone comes across as more confrontational and haughty than intended. I should be thanking others with differing views, as they help me reflect on my own. So: thank you :smile:.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:41 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby dude » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:49 am

I reject that wholesale.

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:57 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

dude
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby dude » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:02 am

oops, I committed a dreadful error.
I misread your post to mean the opposite of what it says.
Yes, Buddhahood is not found outside the mind.

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby conebeckham » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:36 am

Well, it depends on what you mean by "mind." :shrug:

I mean, Buddhahood ain't found in the body....so, the alternative....

oh, never mind. Someone will soon enough tell me that Buddhahood is, indeed, found in the body and I'm just misunderstanding the use of the word "Body."


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:39 am

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Grigoris
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Grigoris » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:41 am

Back to Nagarjuna!

Enlightenment is in this body and mind.

Enlightenment is not in this body and mind.

Enlightenment both is and is not in this body and mind.

Enlightenment neither is nor is not in this body and mind.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Wayfarer
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Wayfarer » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:11 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Sönam
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Sönam » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:48 am

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

thigle
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby thigle » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:15 am

Last edited by thigle on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tobes
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby tobes » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:19 am

The issue of controversy here seems to be something like: is it possible to establish a materialist view (in this case, about the nature of mind or consciousness) without making any discursive/conceptual imputations?

From a western point of view, such a possibility was destroyed by Kant's First Critique well over 200 years ago. One can still be a realist materialist, but only on the back of some very nuanced and subtle conceptual thinking. People who assume that it's possible to arrive at that position without doing that simply haven't looked into the matter (no pun intended). In other words, you have to do metaphysics to get anything like a tenable materialism. And so it follows that advocates of materialism well understand that they are in metaphysical terrain. i.e. you can't get a materialist theory of brain-mind-consciousness without acknowledging the epistemological status of the theory.

Now there seems to be an argument of the kind: maybe the freedom from conceptuality promoted by various forms of Buddhism gives us a way of arriving at a materialist view without the necessity for doing metaphysics. i.e. maybe we can sidestep the Kantian problem that our conceptions and impressions about the phenomenal world can never be the world itself.....because we can get rid of conceptuality, and just have mind/consciousness as it is (which is brain).

Two points about this:
1. It doesn't escape from the Kantian problematic if it posits reasons and evidence to support itself - because those reasons and that evidence are necessarily conceptual.
2. Maybe there is some possibility of moving through a conceptual process and into a phenomenological experience which could be characterised as 'materialist.' But in doing so, there is nothing that could be coherently said about the experience.

:anjali:

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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby thigle » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:50 am


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Grigoris
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Grigoris » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:51 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Andrew108
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:05 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Malcolm » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:33 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa


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