Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14670
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Grigoris » Wed May 14, 2014 9:48 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 14, 2014 10:17 pm

Which part of the mind does pride reside in?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

User avatar
Wayfarer
Posts: 3382
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Wayfarer » Wed May 14, 2014 10:20 pm

Where does the number 7 reside?

Ridiculous question, of course. But similar to asking where the mind is located.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14670
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Grigoris » Wed May 14, 2014 10:37 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 14, 2014 11:03 pm

You haven't really understood what I have been saying so I will give you an analogy. If you listen to your heart beating then you hear the sound of the heart beat. The heart beat is happening in the heart. But if I ask you where exactly in the heart is the heartbeat you will struggle to give me a precise location. So should I now think that the heartbeat is not in the heart but is somewhere else perhaps in a mysterious thing called mind? A thing which is not a thing. That can't be located. No. I just reason that my heartbeat is a product of the functioning of my heart.
Last edited by Andrew108 on Wed May 14, 2014 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 14, 2014 11:04 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 14, 2014 11:08 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14670
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Grigoris » Wed May 14, 2014 11:11 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 14, 2014 11:19 pm

Malcolm you haven't given a precise location you have given a general location. So now you understand the analogy? You haven't been able to say exactly where because the heartbeat 'happens' in different places within the same organ. But you can still give the heartbeat a genral location. You know it is not happening in your big toe or just in your left ventricle.
Last edited by Andrew108 on Wed May 14, 2014 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 14, 2014 11:20 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 2857
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby LastLegend » Wed May 14, 2014 11:24 pm

What does "located" mean?

Calling Oushi. :lol:
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 14, 2014 11:29 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Wayfarer
Posts: 3382
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Wayfarer » Thu May 15, 2014 12:05 am

I think this whole conversation exhibits a kind of 'category error'.

Mind is not really analogous to a heartbeat. A heartbeat is a simple physiological signal which does have a definite location.

Whilst human cognitive functions involve the brain, it is problematical to then claim that mind is solely something in the brain or produced by the brain. Among other things, this can't explain such phenomena as near-death experiences, telepathy and remote viewing, and past-life memories, amongst other things. There is ample documentary evidence for such phenomena.

I think it is more useful and realistic to acknowledge that 'mind' is something that must always escape precise definition, on the basis that such things as definitions depend on mind, rather than vice versa. The instinctively naturalistic approach is always to try and locate phenomena in time and space, but it is the mind which provides that very framework. This is not only the province of Buddhism or paranormal research; philosophers such as Edmund Husserl have made the same point. But getting that point is very much a matter of a change in perspective - like a gestalt shift or something of that nature.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

5heaps
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:09 am

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby 5heaps » Thu May 15, 2014 2:00 am


User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14670
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Grigoris » Thu May 15, 2014 10:27 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Andrew108 » Thu May 15, 2014 10:53 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14670
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Grigoris » Thu May 15, 2014 11:18 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
monktastic
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:48 am
Location: NYC

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby monktastic » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:17 am

I feel compelled to continue riffing on the analogy of the jelly bean dream. Again, the premise is that you're in a dream, in which people's heads are filled with jelly beans instead of neurons. The activity of these jelly beans correlates very closely with people's verbal reports.

I want you to really imagine being in this dream. Notice a few things:

* You are sure that you are awake.
* You use the very same capacities you are using here. You gather data, make hypotheses, draw conclusions.

So:
* There is some degree of correlation beyond which it would be irrational not to admit that conscious experience is caused by jelly beans. Being a rational person, you accept this as a truth about nature.

And this is an entirely reasonable thing to do. The most reasonable, in fact.

And yet, if you can imagine finding this conclusion somehow unsatisfactory, you will have an inkling of what I feel here and now. I may be in denial about the incontrovertible material causes of experience, just as I would be in that dream. But I'm much more interested in immersing myself in the beauty of this experience than pinning down the "cause" of it. Whether it "takes place" in jelly beans or in neurons, experience is just itself.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa

User avatar
Wayfarer
Posts: 3382
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby Wayfarer » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:45 am

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

User avatar
monktastic
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:48 am
Location: NYC

Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind

Postby monktastic » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:19 am

Interesting. I have the experience commonly. Though many times it leads to lucidity, at least as often I get false positives. In fact I had a particularly surprising and comical case of it last night -- where I became lucid, performed some magic, and then "remembered" that this was normal and hence not a dream.

In fact all of one's safeguards can be effectively stymied -- for example, by filling in memories to provide for continuity; reasoning being slightly altered to match expectations; dream characters being produced to supply external validation; etc. Note that these things also happen in waking cases of schizophrenia and other dementia.

Perhaps if one does not have extensive first-hand experience with these oddities, one cannot fathom how one could be entirely sure of something as fundamental as being awake, and yet be wrong. But surely you can admit its possibility.

So the argument is somewhat subtle. It is not simply "well you could be dreaming right now." It is intended to have you compare the experience of certainty in that situation with the certainty in this one, and see that they are fundamentally identical. If I can look for the location of the mind and arrive at certainty that it is located in the brain, and I can achieve the same degree of certainty with respect to jelly beans in another context, then what good is such certainty?

What I've gained from my practice is not that at all. But YMMV.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa


Return to “Mahamudra”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests