Mahamudra and Sixteen Stages of Insight

[Ubhuti]

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all the wonderful information on this site. I am just a beginner on the path and have been exposed to mostly the Theravada framework of meditation. I am starting to read up on Mahamudra and was wondering how Mahamudra fits into the context of the 16 stages of insight ?

Many thanks!

[Wayfarer]

Welcome to Dharma Forum.

I followed that link provided, and noticed this warning in the top paragraph:

Some meditation teachers feel that the following information should not be made available to the general public. That isn't because these teachings are for members of a select group, must be specially transmitted, or are in any sense esoteric; but because, due to the tricky nature of the mind, learning about these insights before acquiring personal meditation experience might cause you to anticipate results, thereby slowing your progress. That's why Mahási Sayádaw wrote, "It is not good for a pupil who meditates under the guidance of a teacher to get acquainted with these stages before meditation begins".

Furthermore, from experience on Internet forums, discussions about detailed descriptions of higher states is often problematical - first because there is no unanimity amongst different Buddhist schools as to how to divide them up, and secondly because they are just very difficult to understand or to describe and so there is a lot of scope for misunderstanding.

So you may or may not get anwers to your question here, but I thought it might be worth mentioning these concerns. If you are, as you say, beginning on the path (as are we all no matter how much we have learned) it might be worth exploring more general questions.

[Virgo]

The 16 stages of insight comes form the Theravada school and is heavily based on their Abhidhamma; I do not believe it was shared by any of the other early Buddhist schools, nor by any of the schools that grew out of them later. Mahamudra deals with the emptiness of all phenomena and was not really dealt with by Theravadins.

All the best

Kevin

[Ubhuti]

Furthermore, from experience on Internet forums, discussions about detailed descriptions of higher states is often problematical - first because there is no unanimity amongst different Buddhist schools as to how to divide them up, and secondly because they are just very difficult to understand or to describe and so there is a lot of scope for misunderstanding.

Many thanks for your response. I have not read the article in full, but have a general idea of the stages. I guess I was curious as to if these stages are encompassed in the Mahamudra teachings or if Mahamudra "skips/bypasses" the stages.

The 16 stages of insight comes form the Theravada school and is heavily based on their Abhidhamma; I do not believe it was shared by any of the other early Buddhist schools, nor by any of the schools that grew out of them later. Mahamudra deals with the emptiness of all phenomena and was not really dealt with by Theravadins.

Thank you for the info - so it sounds like we should consider these separate and unrelated frameworks?

[Virgo]

so it sounds like we should consider these separate and unrelated frameworks?

Right.

Kevin

[Simon E.]

What Kevin said...as far as practice is concerned.

[passel]

It's not that easy to find, but Daniel Brown did a study comparing exactly these two systems, along with Patanjali Yoga, in Transformations of Consciousness about 20 years ago. It's a long essay and pretty technical, but I've found it interesting. I would resist the temptation to say that any distinct formulation of meditation "fits in" to any other- but I don't think it does any harm to think about it, and to let it inform your practice to whatever extent seems useful.

[Ubhuti]

Thank you guys.

It's not that easy to find, but Daniel Brown did a study comparing exactly these two systems, along with Patanjali Yoga, in Transformations of Consciousness about 20 years ago. It's a long essay and pretty technical, but I've found it interesting. I would resist the temptation to say that any distinct formulation of meditation "fits in" to any other- but I don't think it does any harm to think about it, and to let it inform your practice to whatever extent seems useful.

I am a big fan of Ken Wilber and am familiar with that one, but haven't had a chance to read it. The Meditative Mind by Daniel Goleman is also a pretty good attempt at a broad overview of the traditions of meditation. I highly recommend Ken's Integral Spirituality as well. Either way I guess I was just looking for something a bit more specific regarding Mahamudra and the Sixteen Stages - maybe one day I will be able to provide an answer to this one through my own experience