practicing alone

[dzogchungpa]

Moi? No, I just read stuff.

This is an endless "debate," actually, and all I can say is that I trust the words of my Gurus, and the methods they have transmitted.

The problem, dear Cone, is that you actually cannot practice sūtra mahāmudra even if you wanted to. You have received too many empowerments.

Poor Cone.

[conebeckham]

This is akin to saying, "Vajravārāhī is another name for Prajñāpāramitā, therefore, I can practice Vajravārāhī without empowerment and I will achieve exactly the same result whether I have the empowerment or not." So are you willing to accept the consequence? If not, then you have to explain the difference between mahāmudra and Vajravārāhī. Why can't there be a "sūtra" Vajravārāhī" if there can be a "sutra mahāmudra?"

The primary methods of "Sutra Mahamudra"--samatha and vipassana--can be found in the Sutras, as well as in the Tantras. Deity yoga, and Vajravarahi, and the associated completion-stage-with-signs practice methods, are not found in the sutras at all. The Karma Kagyu position, as this novice understands it, is that one can practice the Sutra Methods, and call that "being on the path of Mahamudra," but it does not follow that one can practice Vajravarahi and call that "being on the Sutra path." In my opinion, though, and I hope I've made this clear, at some point a person on the "path of Mahamudra" will rely on pith instructions, pointing out, direct introduction, etc., and likely on the two stages as well.

Right, as I said KB just rehashes Dieter-Matthis' book. Also for example, the Rigpa Rangshar tantra equates Dzogchen with Prajñāpāramitā, so now are we going to say that if we merely practice sutrayāna śamatha and vipaśyāna and sprinkle it with some pithy quotes from sems sde, this constitutes a "sūtra dzogchen"? C'mon...

Well, Dzogchen, at least in theory, also does not rely on the "two stages" --at least in some presentations. Right? I grant you, it's "tantra," and not sutra, and no one ever claimed it was.....but it is an example of a "Vajrayana path" that, at least in theory, relies on Pith Instructions, Pointing Out, etc., sometimes even without the elaborations of The Four Empowerments and the Two Stages.

I just don't see the value in getting hung up on defining whether or not a valid path can be ascribed to Sutra, Tantra, etc.

[conebeckham]

Moi? No, I just read stuff.

This is an endless "debate," actually, and all I can say is that I trust the words of my Gurus, and the methods they have transmitted.

The problem, dear Cone, is that you actually cannot practice sūtra mahāmudra even if you wanted to. You have received too many empowerments.

LOL. Yes, poor dear me! No real dog in this race.....

[Johnny Dangerous]

Perhaps it's worth addressing some of the nuances possible in trying to answer the OP?

It seems that there is consensus among many that "praciticng Mahamudra" proper is not really possible for those not practicing tantra. However, I do not think (or understand why) someone without empowerment could not make use of meditation instructions such as the Barth manual, or similar meditation instruction, in the same way that a practitioner might make use of any basic shamatha instruction or similar.

Saying otherwise amounts to saying "don't use x, y or z shamatha technique"...and for sure as an example, lots of the techniques in the Barth manual are taught as part of Shamatha/Vipaysana without need for empowerment.

It does sound like purely interschool squabbling to me, and squabbling over semantics. None of which is of interest to me. But you guys can feel free to knock yourselves out.

It's more complicated than that, I think that even those who are less adamant than Malcolm would acknowledge that using Mahamudra instructions is not the same as Mahamudra proper, and is not the same path at all without a teacher. So I think a simple answer is that yes, you can make use of some of those instructions in meditation without a teacher, but that it is a totally different animal.

In this sense, the answer would be similar even outside of Vajrayana I think, for instance you could read Zen writings, make use of Zen teachings without a teacher, but without actual instruction..regardless of what you call it, it's not really the same deal.

[Malcolm]

Well, Dzogchen, at least in theory, also does not rely on the "two stages" --at least in some presentations. Right? I grant you, it's "tantra," and not sutra, and no one ever claimed it was.....but it is an example of a "Vajrayana path" that, at least in theory, relies on Pith Instructions, Pointing Out, etc., sometimes even without the elaborations of The Four Empowerments and the Two Stages.

Dzogchen absolutely relies on empowerment, which is why it is considered part of Secret Mantra. This why The Mind Mirror Tantra states:

• Where will there be accomplishment without relying on the empowerments of secret mantra? For example, it is like a boatman without a paddle, how will one be able to cross to the other side? If the empowerments are fully obtained, all secret mantras not accomplished will be accomplished.

Further, as we know, guru yoga is indispensable in Dzogchen.

I just don't see the value in getting hung up on defining whether or not a valid path can be ascribed to Sutra, Tantra, etc.

I think you be pretty upset if you bought a cd advertised as being the music of a virtuouso bass player, and found out it was really bass kazoo they were talking about.

[conebeckham]

Perhaps it's worth addressing some of the nuances possible in trying to answer the OP?

It seems that there is consensus among many that "praciticng Mahamudra" proper is not really possible for those not practicing tantra. However, I do not think (or understand why) someone without empowerment could not make use of meditation instructions such as the Barth manual, or similar meditation instruction, in the same way that a practitioner might make use of any basic shamatha instruction or similar.

Saying otherwise amounts to saying "don't use x, y or z shamatha technique"...and for sure as an example, lots of the techniques in the Barth manual are taught as part of Shamatha/Vipaysana without need for empowerment.

I agree, and I think my prior post about "sutra methods" made that clear?

The only other comment I'd like to make, regards the "availability" of certain instructions, including some of those in Barth's manual, I think. The reason that traditionally quite a bit of this was not "public access" was that it's easy to deceive oneself, parrot the words, engage in conceptual constructions, and possibly even deceive others--including gurus. you know, these days all of this is available, either in Tibetan-if you can read it- or in translation--but the "traditional Student-Teacher" model controlled access--a student would not have access to these things until the teacher deemed it appropriate. Some of you may claim this is objectionable,and in any case those days are pretty much long gone, but the tradition included a relationship between the teacher and the student, with questioning, and interaction. Even the Sutras were studied, in Tibet, at the feet of a master. People talk about "causing oneself harm" by trying to practice Tummo from a book, etc., but the harm of mistaking pith instructions can be potentially as damaging, I think.

[Malcolm]

People talk about "causing oneself harm" by trying to practice Tummo from a book, etc., but the harm of mistaking pith instructions can be potentially as damaging, I think.

Yes, as for example the vast wasteland of the clueless leading the blind on the internet.

[conebeckham]

Yes indeed, Malcolm. With Dzogchen as well as with Mahamudra, that seems to be a result. May we all meet with the good fortune of a genuine guru-disciple relationship, guard our samayas, and ultimately be able to benefit self and others.

And just to be crystal-clear, my words should not be mistaken for the genuine instructions of a qualified teacher in any lineage. I really hope this is clear--if you want to practice Mahamudra (or Dzogchen), you NEED a teacher. Not a book. Not an internet bulletin board. Not a Facebook group.

[Malcolm]

...guard our samayas...

Have to have received an empowerment to even have those.

[dzogchungpa]

I think you be pretty upset if you bought a cd advertised as being the music of a virtuouso bass player, and found out it was really bass kazoo they were talking about.

http://www.captainkazoo.com/weird.html

[conebeckham]

...guard our samayas...

Have to have received an empowerment to even have those.

LOL. Yep. And you have to meet a genuine guru to get an empowerment. Not on the internet.

[conebeckham]

I think you be pretty upset if you bought a cd advertised as being the music of a virtuouso bass player, and found out it was really bass kazoo they were talking about.

http://www.captainkazoo.com/weird.html

LOL, the valve is superfluous.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I think you be pretty upset if you bought a cd advertised as being the music of a virtuouso bass player, and found out it was really bass kazoo they were talking about.

http://www.captainkazoo.com/weird.html

that thing looks amazing and I want one.

[conebeckham]

Bass Kazoos?

[dzogchungpa]

Because you know I'm all about that bass ... kazoo?

[Vasana]

Regardless of whether one can practice Mahamudra without the empowerments and introduction, you can at least, as this thread has mentioned , realize Prajnaparamita, which in turn will lead to 'anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi' as mentioned in the Mahāprajñāpāramitā Mañjuśrī parivarta Sūtra.

The defintion of 'anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi' is said to be; "The unsurpassed, equally perfect enlightenment (無上正等正覺). Anuttara means unsurpassed; samyak is derived from the stem samyañc, which means same or identical; saṁbodhi means perfect enlightenment. Equally means that the perfect enlightenment of all Buddhas is the same."

If the enlightenment of all Buddhas is the same, then cultivating Prajnaparamita can lead to the same equal 'realization' as mahamudra. The sutras might not mention the nature of the Kayas & the various manifestations of awakened-activity etc but if prajnaparmita can lead to the same realization , i'm sure the Kayas would reveal their own nature as time go's on.

Like Malcolm said, the suchness is the same, but the method it's self might vary. I guess distinguishing the difference between escence and path mahamudra here is key.

On another side note, you can pray with sincerity that when the outer and inner causes and conditions are sufficient, that you will encounter an authentic transmission in future times.Whether in this lifetime or beyond. You can also pray with sincerity to be guided and taught by Dakinis and other manifestations of compassion+wisdom. You can pray for guidance and empowerments from such beings who are not restricted by time & place to occur within your dream-body/bardo. It might be the case that you have to work on removing or transforming other obscuring factors and mental habits first though.

[Gyurme Kundrol]

Even the reincarnations of great masters receive empowerment to ripen the mindstream. Even if the karmic potential is completely there and ready to blossom into instantaneous Buddhahood, you need the empowerment to bring it to the forefront. Even many of the great Siddhas who didnt have a human teacher or didnt have access to one regularly still had a wisdom teacher and received empowerment from them.

[Malcolm]

Regardless of whether one can practice Mahamudra without the empowerments and introduction, you can at least, as this thread has mentioned , realize Prajnaparamita, which in turn will lead to 'anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi' as mentioned in the Mahāprajñāpāramitā Mañjuśrī parivarta Sūtra.

Yes, but only after one has progressed through the five paths and ten stages, and that takes at minimum three incalculable eons, two just to reach the level of the eighth bhumi.

[Vasana]

Regardless of whether one can practice Mahamudra without the empowerments and introduction, you can at least, as this thread has mentioned , realize Prajnaparamita, which in turn will lead to 'anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi' as mentioned in the Mahāprajñāpāramitā Mañjuśrī parivarta Sūtra.

Yes, but only after one has progressed through the five paths and ten stages, and that takes at minimum three incalculable eons, two just to reach the level of the eighth bhumi.

I've never been so sure about that to be honest. I think if your understanding of prajnaparamita is clear enough, you will naturally be able to enter into and stabilize various Samadhis and absorptions and various unmistakable experiences will arise,dissolving all doubts.

I think the whole three incalculable eons things is also more of a provisional description rather than something to take literally. If you have sharp intellect and a propensity for the teachings, you can be sure that you have probably encountered them in previous lifetimes.

I also think many of us here have been doing this kind of thing for much longer than 3 incalculable eons. Maybe lots of people are already on their 'final' eon.

[Astus]

Well, which "prajñāpāramitā" is he discussing? The practice of prajñāpāramita? Or the result, Prajñāpāramita?

Gampopa writes: "Setting the mind this way is the unmistaken method of practicing wisdom awareness." (p 249) and where he gives the list of all those things he beings with: "When one is endowed with the meaning of emptiness, there is not a single thing which in not included in this path." (p 252) In the commentaries by Ringu Tulku and Thrangu Rinpoche they both talk about resting in the natural state as taught in Mahamudra.

The difference between sutra and tantra in terms of Mahamudra are quite practical: "According to Mahamudra teachers, the sutric Mahayana approach uses external phenomena as the object of vipashyana meditation, whereas the tantric Mahayana approach of Mahamudra uses the mind itself as the object." (Traleg Kyabgon).

Also,

"Gampopa said that there are three different paths with different practices, but these three paths have the same nature. These are taking inference as the path, taking blessings as the path, and taking direct experience as the path. Taking inference as the path refers to, for instance, the various reasonings set forth in the Madhyamaka that show that all things are neither single nor multiple. Taking blessings as the path refers to, for instance, meditation upon the body of a deity or the practices involving the subtle channels and subtle energies. Taking direct perception as the path is mahamudra. Mahamudra is pointed out to us, and we recognize it, become accustomed to it, and take direct experience as the path.
We can also classify the different paths into three groups: the paths that abandon the ground, paths that transform the ground, and paths that recognize· the ground.The first path of abandoning the ground is the vehicle of transcendent action of the sutra vehicle, in which some things are abandoned and others are remedies for those things to be abandoned. The second path, transformation of the ground, refers to the practices of the Vajrayana in which we purity our body and mind by meditating on our body being a deity. Our body is thus transformed into the pure body of the deity, and our mind is transformed from discursiveness into wisdom. In the third path, recognizing the ground, is mahamudra.We know that we do not need to abandon or transform the ground; rather, we know it as it is. When we know the ground as it is, we recognize all appearances as the magical display of the mind. Thus, mahamudra is a matter of using direct perception as the path. This is also called the quick path."
(Thrangu: Essentials of Mahamudra, p 78-79)

As for the so called Sutra Mahamudra (that actually stands for Gampopa's Mahamudra):

"The meditation of Sutra Mahamudra essentially consists of resting one's mind, free of mental activity, in the state of nonconceptual wisdom. This is the fundamental definition of Sutra Mahamudra: mind resting in the state in which it experiences the dharmadhatu, which is the expanse or nature of all things. This resting is essentially a nonconceptual wisdom beyond all elaboration, or the unity of clarity and emptiness. In this context, one meditates in the following way: The object of one's meditation is luminosity free of any projections; the perceiving subject is the lack of mental engagement; and one meditates without mental engagement. There are many extensive explanations on meditating without mental engagement, found primarily in the teachings of Maitripa and Sahajavajra.
The Sutrayana approach to Mahamudra is seen as a very profound method because it does not require any of the sophisticated and complex tantric rituals, deity yoga visualization practices, or samayas. It is a simple sutra approach, yet it conveys the direct transmission of the tantric essence of awakening."
(Dzogchen Ponlop: Wild Awakening, 31-32)