Loch Kelly

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heart
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby heart » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:05 am

Malcolm wrote:
Kim wrote:He's been studying with these rinpoche's for a few decades.


What does this mean?

Sorry, but at minimum, someone who is teaching Dzogchen or Mahāmudra should at least have rudimentary grasp of Tibetan. For example, we have this fellow in Sweden who has claimed he was authorized to teach Dzogchen by TUR, but when such claims are investigated, the basis upon which they are made seems to evaporite like morning mist when the sun rises.


Sweden? You probably mean Denmark, right?

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

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Malcolm
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:15 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Kim wrote:He's been studying with these rinpoche's for a few decades.


What does this mean?

Sorry, but at minimum, someone who is teaching Dzogchen or Mahāmudra should at least have rudimentary grasp of Tibetan. For example, we have this fellow in Sweden who has claimed he was authorized to teach Dzogchen by TUR, but when such claims are investigated, the basis upon which they are made seems to evaporite like morning mist when the sun rises.


Sweden? You probably mean Denmark, right?

/magnus


Right, but all you Scandinavians look alike. ;)
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby heart » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
What does this mean?

Sorry, but at minimum, someone who is teaching Dzogchen or Mahāmudra should at least have rudimentary grasp of Tibetan. For example, we have this fellow in Sweden who has claimed he was authorized to teach Dzogchen by TUR, but when such claims are investigated, the basis upon which they are made seems to evaporite like morning mist when the sun rises.


Sweden? You probably mean Denmark, right?

/magnus


Right, but all you Scandinavians look alike. ;)


:smile:

/magnus
We are all here to help each other go through this, whatever it is.
~Kurt Vonnegut

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa

"Even though you have recognized your essence, if you do not get accustomed to it,
You will be carried away by the enemy of thoughts, like a small child in a battle field.
So long as you are not free from the limitations of accepting and rejecting,
That long will you not recognize the view of the innermost secret heart-essence."

-Longchenpa

JAC72
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby JAC72 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:02 pm

Hello all,

I am a colleague of Loch Kelly’s and wanted to clear up some of the confusions here:

1. I have helped coordinate events for Loch and other teachers. Some of the information about fees is related to communicating with hosts about how many students they think will attend. Most lay teachers like Loch want to accept invitations but want to know that there will be a decent number of students in order to leave home and make a teaching trip from the US to Europe. Loch did not want to charge a very small group of student higher fees to pay for the trip. Therefore, Loch suggests to hosts that he would like do a a 2 1/2 day retreat with around 55 people attending at around $150 per student. Taking into account scholarships given to students that is where the $7700 figure came from. It does sound strange when it is presented out of context. This is a pretty typical way to talk about whether the host can get enough people to attend for a teacher to accept an invitation to spend 5 days including travel. You can easily look at the fees on Loch’s website which are reasonable and similar to other dharma teachers.

2. Loch is a wonderful person who has mainly done clinical social work in New York City with the severely mentally ill, the homeless and families of 9/11, where he was a first responder. As you can read in Loch's book, at the end of a one-on-one student-teacher interview in 2004 Mingyur Rinpoche said to Loch, “I would like you to teach Sutra Mahamudra.” This verbal invitation was known by many of us at the time. Two years later, before the Tergar organization was formed, this authorization letter below was given to Loch using the terms shamatha and vipassana (see http://bit.ly/2bcWpgQ ). I know that Loch is planning to talk to Mingyur Rinpoche directly about what language he would like to use going forward.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby philji » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:47 pm

JAC72 wrote:Hello all,

I am a colleague of Loch Kelly’s and wanted to clear up some of the confusions here:

1. I have helped coordinate events for Loch and other teachers. Some of the information about fees is related to communicating with hosts about how many students they think will attend. Most lay teachers like Loch want to accept invitations but want to know that there will be a decent number of students in order to leave home and make a teaching trip from the US to Europe. Loch did not want to charge a very small group of student higher fees to pay for the trip. Therefore, Loch suggests to hosts that he would like do a a 2 1/2 day retreat with around 55 people attending at around $150 per student. Taking into account scholarships given to students that is where the $7700 figure came from. It does sound strange when it is presented out of context. This is a pretty typical way to talk about whether the host can get enough people to attend for a teacher to accept an invitation to spend 5 days including travel. You can easily look at the fees on Loch’s website which are reasonable and similar to other dharma teachers.

2. Loch is a wonderful person who has mainly done clinical social work in New York City with the severely mentally ill, the homeless and families of 9/11, where he was a first responder. As you can read in Loch's book, at the end of a one-on-one student-teacher interview in 2004 Mingyur Rinpoche said to Loch, “I would like you to teach Sutra Mahamudra.” This verbal invitation was known by many of us at the time. Two years later, before the Tergar organization was formed, this authorization letter below was given to Loch using the terms shamatha and vipassana (see http://bit.ly/2bcWpgQ ). I know that Loch is planning to talk to Mingyur Rinpoche directly about what language he would like to use going forward.


Thanks for this info.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:27 pm

Here's an interview:

phpBB [video]



I haven't watched it yet but I've often found these BATGAP interviews to be a good way to get a sense of where someone is coming from.
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:06 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Here's an interview:

phpBB [video]



I haven't watched it yet but I've often found these BATGAP interviews to be a good way to get a sense of where someone is coming from.


Spirituality Lite™. It's less filling!

Seriously though, his idea about awakening have nothing to do with Buddhadharma.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:38 pm

Who care's if it's Buddhadharma or not....i don't think Awakening is intended for only Buddhists...that's why there are 84,000 gates.
IT IS OUR NATURAL STATE...OUR BIRTH-RIGHT
I loved his beautiful smile.
And i thought he was sincere.
And i watched the whole video.
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......

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Malcolm
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:40 pm

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Who care's if it's Buddhadharma or not....i don't think Awakening is intended for only Buddhists...that's why there are 84,000 gates.
I loved his beautiful smile.
And i thought he was sincere.
And i watched the whole video.



It depends on what one means bynthe term awakening.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:03 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Who care's if it's Buddhadharma or not....i don't think Awakening is intended for only Buddhists...that's why there are 84,000 gates.
IT IS OUR NATURAL STATE...OUR BIRTH-RIGHT
I loved his beautiful smile.
And i thought he was sincere.
And i watched the whole video.

You have to admit that Malcolm's smile is nice too. :smile:
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:05 am

Malcolm wrote:It depends on what one means bynthe term awakening.


So you can be awake but not fully Enlightened ?
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:12 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
You have to admit that Malcolm's smile is nice too. :smile:


:smile:


There was something very beautiful in his smile (Loch Kelly), it was warm and genuine..honest & sincere ...not pretentious...or arrogant...
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:26 am

All the years I've been into Tibetan Buddhism, all the books I've read, all the contacts I've had....and I still feel like a f@@king loser...
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby anjali » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:35 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:All the years I've been into Tibetan Buddhism, all the books I've read, all the contacts I've had....and I still feel like a f@@king loser...

If you can, bring that feeling into your practice and work with it. Rightly approached, it's a treasure. Seriously.
All things are unworthy of clinging to (sabbe dhammā nâla abhinivesāyā). --Shakyamuni Buddha
Wanting to grasp the ungraspable, you exhaust yourself in vain. --Gendun Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:40 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It depends on what one means bynthe term awakening.


So you can be awake but not fully Enlightened ?


Yes. But more than that, the nonduality people like kelley, etc., dont have same idea of awakening as the one found in Buddhadharma.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:51 am

Malcolm wrote:Yes. But more than that, the nonduality people like kelley, etc., dont have same idea of awakening as the one found in Buddhadharma.


But didn't Buddha even say upon his Enlightenment, that everyone/everything was Enlightenend simutaneously ?
You can't get more non-dual than that...
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......

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Malcolm
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:56 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Yes. But more than that, the nonduality people like kelley, etc., dont have same idea of awakening as the one found in Buddhadharma.


But didn't Buddha even say upon his Enlightenment, that everyone/everything was Enlightenend simutaneously ?
You can't get more non-dual than that...


No, the Buddha never said this.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:13 am

Well..what did he realize when he saw the morning star ?

In seeing the morning star and exclaiming, “I and all sentient beings on earth, together, attain enlightenment at the same time,”


http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... Buddha.htm


Then there is this one :

first statement following his enlightenment was: "Wonderful, wonderful! All sentient beings have the same wisdom and virtue as the Tathágata, but because of the obstacle of illusion and grasping they cannot attain."


http://buddhasutra.com/files/prajnaparamita.htm
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:44 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Well..what did he realize when he saw the morning star ?

In seeing the morning star and exclaiming, “I and all sentient beings on earth, together, attain enlightenment at the same time,”


http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... Buddha.htm


This is a late Chan story. It is mot to be taken literally.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:00 am

I see no difference in that and your signature. ...

To stay on topic, maybe people like Loch Kelly need to teach those that have not studied Buddhadharma...or any esoteric literature....it saddens me that truth is always under lock and key...by those that claim to know it..
And if anyone comes along openly teaching it, they are discredited. ...

It broke my heart when I read Longchenpa's BASIC SPACE OF PHENOMENA. ...
All that talk about "eveness", and nonduality....then blowing my mind when referring to others as having lower capacities. ...when All IS EQUAL.....
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......


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