Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:00 pm

Astus wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:Transformations of light do belong to Tantra?
- In Dzogchen there is nothing transformed because all is self-emanating just like the Yeshe aspect(s).


It depends on your view. With the view of self, you are manipulating things. With the view of no-self, all is self-emanating and self-liberating. Look into this teaching of Thrangu Rinpoche on Bringing Obstacles to the Path.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for the reply.


Must say that here thoughts are more seen in dualistic way .

In case of the non-arising of thoughts or the nature of thoughts is this compared to the example:

The waves of the sea are the thoughts
The sea or deep sea is the same (nature of wett/ one flavour)

So in Dzogchen would be the thoughtless State dwelling in the Nature where the thoughts form a part of.
I guess so everything comes out, stays and dissolves back into that or Nature.
So thoughts are not to be avoided during meditation and i guess that would be impossible but mainpoint is not working with thoughts.....


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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:00 pm

Jnana wrote:What is the Sanskrit term for gzhi?


According to Khyenste Wangpo, sthāna.


The basis in mahāmudrā is not limited to compounded, momentary minds. Karmapa Wangchuk Dorje, Mahamudra: The Ocean of Definitive Meaning:

    [Ground mahamudra] is what is realized and actualized by the nondual mind of the buddhas and noble individuals. It is the basic state (gshis kyi babs) of the three realms of samsara and the true nature of all phenomena from the beginning. It is connate wisdom (lhan gcig skyes pa'i ye shes), which pervades the entire ground.


Right, this is not the same thing as the gzhi. Tilopa describes this as the nature of mind:

As such, the nature of the mind resembles space from the beginning,
there are no phenomena not included in it...


This is still the ālaya. As the third Karmapa writes in The Profound Inner Topics:

The cause is the beginningless nature of the mind,
which does not fall into any partialities,
yet from its unceasing play --
the essence emptiness, and the nature, clarity--
all kinds of aspects arose.

Not recognizing itself,
the movements of mind’s formations
are like waves moving on water,
from which object and apprehender both appear,
itself focusing on and apprehending itself;
that mind moves outward; from the apparent aspect
the consciousness that apprehends objects in external objects appears.


This is the ālaya but it is not the gzhi as described by Dzogchen.

The terminology of dzogchen and mahāmudra are not commensurate with each other because the paths are different.

Neither mahāmudrā nor dzogchen require tögal (cf. all of the dzogchen teachings composed prior to the development of the man ngag sde class).


However things may have been prior to the 11th century, since then tögal is the main thrust of Dzogchen practice. And since this is so, the way the basis is described is different, necessarily so. And so I still do not agree that similarity in terminology indicates similarity in intention.

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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:03 pm

Jnana wrote: then claim that yours is a superior game.



You know what? I didn't say anything of the kind in this discussion.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:04 pm

Astus wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Nevertheless the distinction is crucial.


Crucial to what?


To the path of Dzogchen.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:33 pm

Astus wrote:kalden yungdrung,

The topic of lights, energy and bardo are covered under the six yogas of Naropa. In that sense, it is the path of transformation and not the path of liberation.


You should read Dudjom R. You are suffering from more misconceptions than I have time to remove.

Also note what Jnana has referred to here before, that the whole tögal teaching with the lamps, etc. is a later development in Dzogchen.


You know what? We really do not know this to be a fact. All we know for sure is that the earliest texts we see for these practices (klong sde and man ngag sde) that we have access to seem to date from around the mid 10th century onward. But it is very hard to date this material. There is also a kama transmission for thögal which is held to date to the 8th century that consists of just a page or two where it forms part of the completion stage of KIlaya/Yangdag.

Anyway, even if man ngag sde did prove to be a later elboration, it does not matter. Jñāna seems to evince a preference for Indian authored material. That's ok, but I do not see Indian authorship as proof of superior content, or Tibetan authorship of inferior content.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:56 pm

Namdrol wrote:Anyway, even if man ngag sde did prove to be a later elboration, it does not matter. Jñāna seems to evince a preference for Indian authored material. That's ok, but I do not see Indian authorship as proof of superior content, or Tibetan authorship of inferior content.


I don't mind if it's later or not, or if it was only made up only twenty years ago. Jnana's point was that both Mahamudra and Dzogchen could function without such teachings. Also, while you have come up with this issue of alaya, you simply did not address all the references brought here originally. Are you implying that they are all wrong, or that there are different views possible, or something else?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:10 pm

All-Pervasive Compassion is related mainly to Yermed and Thugs-rJe, yes? And if in Dzogchen, Trekchö is the Base and Thögal is the Path, then the Fruition is also closely related to Thugs-rJe and Yermed?

The Crystal and the Way of Light by Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has a nice index explaining a lot of this, but I don't have this book on hand at the moment.

Speaking of which, in this book Rinpoche recognized that "Without Karmamudra, no Mahamudra" which of course implies that Mahamudra is the Fruition of Tantra and is even dependent on it; whereas Dzogchen can be a complete Path in Itself not necessarily dependent on Tantrayana, Karmamudra, or the lower Yanas in general (of course Karmamudra could be an excellent Semdzin to say the least).

Although I've heard that there are 'different kinds' of Mahamudra, such as Essence Mahamudra, Gampopa's Mahamudra, Sutra Mahamudra (Chan/Zen?), etc.

Is Essence Mahamudra the same as Gampopa's Mahamudra, or are they different?

I believe it is said that if any Mahamudra is the same as Dzogchen, that it would be Essence Mahamudra.

Astus' quote of Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche talking about Mahamudra Pointing-Out Enlightenment in One Instant was interesting. I remember seeing a Dharmawheel thread about this in relation to the views of Zen and Dzogchen....

About the Bodies, from my thread on Trekchö that is now on the second page of the Dzogchen sub-forum:


Lhug-Pa wrote:Without going into discussing the Yid-Lus and sGyu-Lus so much (unless relevant); let's discuss mainly the Ja'-Lus (the Rainbow Body), Lus rDul Phran (Atomic Body), Od-Kyi-Lus or A'od-Lus (Light Body), and Phowa-Chenpo (Great Transference Body) in possible relation to the practice of Trekchö.

It seems that the final Fruition of Anuyoga and/or Anuttaratayoga Tantra is the Ja'-Lus; the Fruition of Trekchö is the Lus rDul Phran (but not necessarily with either the Rainbow Body or the Light Body), the Fruition of Thögal or Tögyal at the time of physical death is the Od Kyi Lus or A'od-Lus, and the Fruition of Thögal before physical death is Phowa-Chenpo.


Also, what is the main difference between the Tantrayana view and Dzogchen view of Prajna/Sherab?

In Dzogchen it seems that Jnana/Yeshe is mainly related to Kadag and that Vidya/Rigpa is mainly related to Lhundrub, so then Prajna/Sherab would be mainly related to Yermed?

In Rinpoche's small book on Zen and Dzogchen I believe it is said something along the lines of that Sutra is mainly focused on the Emptiness of the Dharmakaya dimension, Tantra on the Bliss and Clarity of the Sambhogakaya, and Dzogchen on the Energy of the Nirmanakaya dimension. Does anyone have this book on hand to confirm this?

One more question, what is the difference between the Tantra and Dzogchen view of the Svabhavikakaya, Vajrakaya, and Abhisambodhikaya (the translation of The Tibetan Book of the Dead with H.H. Dalai Lama and Thupten Jinpa and others has some explanation of these Kayas and Dzogchen from what I remember).
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:30 pm

Astus wrote: there are different views possible, or something else?


There are different views.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:05 pm

It looks like Essence Mahamudra is referred to as Ground Mahamudra in the quote from Circle of the Sun that Jnana posted.

Even so, perhaps it is still the case that even Essence or Ground Mahamudra refers to Kunzhi/Alaya, and that Dzogchen refers to gZhi/Sthana on the other hand.

It seems that Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche doesn't distinguish between gZhi and Kunzhi in his teachings, although I could be mistaken. Perhaps Kalden Yungdrung would comment on this.

Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche does of course give teachings on the Six Lamps, and Sounds, Lights, & Rays; and I think that actually he does distinguish between gZhi and Kunzhi at times.


Here's an interesting note:


"On Rigpa, Wikipedia":

Note that if we use the term rig pa in the sense of the Base (gzhi), then it will indicate the nondual awareness under discussion, whether it is nondual awareness (of) dualistic consciousness of object, as in saṃsāra; nondual awareness that reveals its own nature, as in nirvāṇa; or nondual awareness that does not manifest a duality but that nonetheless does not reveal its own nature, as in kunzhi (kun gzhi). On the other hand, qua Path and qua Fruit rigpa will always be nondual awareness that reveals its own nature in nirvāṇa. Cf. Capriles, E. (2004). Clear discrimination of views pointing at the definitive meaning: The four philosophical schools of the Sutrayana traditionally taught in Tibet (With reference to the Dzogchen teachings). Mérida, Venezuela: University of The Andes.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:37 pm

You reckon if we keep thrashing it we will finally break it down to its essential particles?
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:40 pm

:rolling: ^^^

Will a moderator please put quotations marks around "On Rigpa, Wikipedia" in my previous post as to fix the quote box?

It won't let me edit it now.

Thanks.

Edit: Now it looks like my previous post is missing somethings I'd edited in earlier.

I'd added that Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche refers to gZhi, and that Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche I think does at times as well, and that sometimes the Six Lamps are spoken of as Four Lamps.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby purple rose » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:53 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote::rolling: ^^^

Will a moderator please put quotations marks around "On Rigpa, Wikipedia" in my previous post as to fix the quote box?


Done!

It won't let me edit it now.


Please see the announcement regarding post editing time limit viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6436#p75919

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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:17 pm

Thanks Tara

It looks like the missing edited-in text was due to me going back on the browser which might have unedited my edits.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:51 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Astus wrote: there are different views possible, or something else?


There are different views.


So it is then. :thumbsup:
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:57 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Jnana wrote:The basis in mahāmudrā is not limited to compounded, momentary minds. Karmapa Wangchuk Dorje, Mahamudra: The Ocean of Definitive Meaning:

    [Ground mahamudra] is what is realized and actualized by the nondual mind of the buddhas and noble individuals. It is the basic state (gshis kyi babs) of the three realms of samsara and the true nature of all phenomena from the beginning. It is connate wisdom (lhan gcig skyes pa'i ye shes), which pervades the entire ground.


Right, this is not the same thing as the gzhi.

Tsele Natsok Rangdröl indicates otherwise. The Circle of the Sun:

    The Heart Mirror of Vajrasattva says:

    Understand that the attributes of the ground are essence, nature, and compassion....

    All the sutras and tantras agree that this ground is primordially present in everyone from the tiniest insect to Dharmakaya Samantabhadra. The Uttara Tantra teaches:

    This space free from the limit of a beginning
    is the nature of all phenomena.
    Because of possessing it
    All beings attain the 'passing beyond sorrow' (nirvana).


    This ground is also known as the 'virtuous dharma-nature of beginningless time' and as what the mahamudra teachings call the 'mahamudra of the natural state.'...

    Not only the dzogchen teachings, but the sutras and treatises, as well, have unanimously taught this point [regarding the difference between sem and wisdom]. Nonetheless, many people, indeed, do not realize it because of their misunderstanding. The Sutra on the Wisdom of the Verge of Passing teaches:

    Buddhahood is attained once mind is realized, so cultivate the idea of not seeking buddhahood elsewhere.

    The meaning of that statement is in accordance with what is explained here because the realization of the nature of mind is itself awareness-wisdom. In short, awareness-wisdom is the core of what should be put into practice, while sem is its manifestation or expression.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Jnana wrote:What is the Sanskrit term for gzhi?


According to Khyenste Wangpo, sthāna.


Sthāna is also referred to by Manjushrimitra here:

http://www.dharmafellowship.org/library ... d-mind.htm

Although perhaps in a different context than gZhi....
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:58 pm

Tsele Natsok Rangdröl indicates otherwise. The Circle of the Sun:...



Honestly, I think this analysis by this master is a bit misleading -- he is trying to assert that gzhi described by Dzogchen has an equivalent counterpart in the kun gzhi of the Mahāmudra system. However, if you read any straight mahāmudra manual, for example, Dagpo Tashi Namgyal's texts or Sakyapa presentations and so on, for them the basis [gzhi] is the all-basis [kun gzhi], the clear and empty nature of the mind. It is called the all-basis because when it is not recognized, it is the basis for samsara, and when it is recognized, it is the basis for nirvana.

On the other hand, you have Dzogchen texts that systematically differentiate between gzhi and kun gzhi. The reason for this is not arbitrary and have everything to do with the path of Dzogchen. These topics are not mentioned at all in any system of Mahāmudra since they form no part of Mahāmudra practice. The system of differentiating mind and wisdom (sems and ye shes) in Mahāmudra is not the same as differentiating between mind and vidyā in Dzogchen and does not have the same intention.

N
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:29 pm

Namdrol wrote:Honestly, I think this analysis by this master is a bit misleading -- he is trying to assert that gzhi described by Dzogchen has an equivalent counterpart in the kun gzhi of the Mahāmudra system.

The natural state is the natural state.

Namdrol wrote:The system of differentiating mind and wisdom (sems and ye shes) in Mahāmudra is not the same as differentiating between mind and vidyā in Dzogchen and does not have the same intention.

I suspect that the Indian mahasiddhas would have had no problem satirizing these Tibetan maneuvers. As would the Chinese Chan masters.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:59 pm

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Honestly, I think this analysis by this master is a bit misleading -- he is trying to assert that gzhi described by Dzogchen has an equivalent counterpart in the kun gzhi of the Mahāmudra system.

The natural state is the natural state.



What Tibetan and Sanskrit term are you using for natural state?





Namdrol wrote:The system of differentiating mind and wisdom (sems and ye shes) in Mahāmudra is not the same as differentiating between mind and vidyā in Dzogchen and does not have the same intention.

I suspect that the Indian mahasiddhas would have had no problem satirizing these Tibetan maneuvers. As would the Chinese Chan masters.
[/quote]

Ok, I will repeat one more time for the benefit our readers, since you are clearly not interested in having any kind of reasonable discussion -- these differences in presentation depend on respective differences in paths.


N
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:20 am

Namdrol wrote:What Tibetan and Sanskrit term are you using for natural state?

Buddhist soteriology doesn't require a specialized language. But take your pick: gnas lugs, gshis kyi gnas lugs, gshis kyi babs, etc., etc..

Namdrol wrote:you are clearly not interested in having any kind of reasonable discussion

There are no sacred cows in Buddhism. Dzogchen's own supersessionist rhetoric is absurd on the face of it. Even moreso since it has no Indian precedent. The Dzogchen Tantras fall into the same category of scriptural apocrypha as the Vajrasamadhi Sutra and other non-Indian sources. It's rather hilarious that something which was never a significant part of Indian Buddhism is now proclaimed as the apex of all things Buddhist!
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