Tantric and late Indian Buddhist philosophy

[DGA]

which would mean it's very unlikely indeed that Chinese masters such as Amoghavajra would describe their own practice as Vajrayana. And if so, it's hardly appropriate to describe Taimitsu as practiced in Shingon or Tendai as Vajrayana (it's sometimes explained as Vajrayana).

thanks for the clarification.

I don't think many refer to Shingon or Tendai as Vajrayana except if they are using the term broadly to reference all sorts of esoteric Buddhism. Like your use of the adjective “Chinese” to describe Amoghavajra, who was not Chinese but did teach in China. Almost all literature on Shingon I have encountered calls it Esoteric Japanese Buddhism, Tantric or occasionally Mantrayana. As Stephen Hodge points out in his translation of the MVT many scholars are using the four categorisations of tantra that the Tibetans developed but that is largely for ease in chronological ordering of the various tantras (early to late) and not for specific doctrinal reasons. Though perhaps I misread his statement. I should point out here that for Kukai and for Shingon, esoteric does not equal tantric. In fact, for Kukai, any school or commentary could have an esoteric component. It is off topic here but would be happy to discuss further, or just see his Secret Key to the Heart Sutra.

As per your interest in clarification, in addition to the ethnicity of Amoghavajra, I would like to also point out what I’m sure is an editing error, but Shingon is never described as practicing Taimitsu, only Tendai.

Good thread.

Yes, thank you for the corrections--I was writing in haste.

I've heard the esoteric practices of Japan referred to as Vajrayana in everyday speech more than once. If I'm reading correctly, Indrajala objects to Malcolm's definition of Vajrayana in part because it excludes such practices. That's why it seems like a useful point to clarify.

[Malcolm]

I've heard the esoteric practices of Japan referred to as Vajrayana in everyday speech more than once.

But it is not accurate and the term never once occurs in any tantras considered Yoga tantra on down; whereas the term guhyamantra occurs in all kinds of tantras down to the Susiddhikara, generally considered to be the root tantra of the kriya tantras. It even occurs in Vinaya texts, PP in 8000 lines, Avatamska, Ratnakuta collection, and so on. The term guhyamantra, like vidyāmantra, is found in texts much earlier than what Western academics consider to be the "tantric" phase of Indian Buddhism (post 8th century).

[Malcolm]

But the fact of the matter is that Maitripa promulgated a cycle of Vajrayogini teachings which is preserved to this day in both Kagyu and Sakya. Saraha wrote a famous commentary on the Buddhakapala tantra, and is credited with being the first master to promulgate the Cakrasamvara tantra and so on. Maitripa also bestowed many empowermen's and teachings on Marpa.

They don't exclude each other. Kagyu has a large number of Tantric teachings besides Mahamudra, just as Gampopa taught both path of means and path of liberation. What the mentioned article attempts to show is that "not-specifically-Tantric" Mahamudra existed already in India, and those who taught it considered it beyond both Sutra and Tantra like Gampopa.

Right, and since everyone he cites was already a well schooled Vajrayāna master, his argument is quite weak.

[DGA]

I've heard the esoteric practices of Japan referred to as Vajrayana in everyday speech more than once.

But it is not accurate and the term never once occurs in any tantras considered Yoga tantra on down; whereas the term guhyamantra occurs in all kinds of tantras down to the Susiddhikara, generally considered to be the root tantra of the kriya tantras. It even occurs in Vinaya texts, PP in 8000 lines, Avatamska, Ratnakuta collection, and so on. The term guhyamantra, like vidyāmantra, is found in texts much earlier than what Western academics consider to be the "tantric" phase of Indian Buddhism (post 8th century).

This is good and helpful stuff, Malcolm. Thank you.

[Astus]

since everyone he cites was already a well schooled Vajrayāna master, his argument is quite weak.

If they were competent Sutra and Tantra teachers, wouldn't that rather strengthen the validity of their assessment of the direct Mahamudra path?

[Malcolm]

since everyone he cites was already a well schooled Vajrayāna master, his argument is quite weak.

If they were competent Sutra and Tantra teachers, wouldn't that rather strengthen the validity of their assessment of the direct Mahamudra path?

First of all, what do you mean by a "direct" Mahāmudra path? What are its characteristics, and so on. Then we will see whether or not it is part of Vajrayāna or not.

M

[conebeckham]

Just guessing but I assume Astus refers to what Kagyupas call the Thar Lam path of Mahamudra, from Saraha, Savari, and Maitripa....that of, for example, the Gangama Upadesa, etc.

[Malcolm]

Just guessing but I assume Astus refers to what Kagyupas call the Thar Lam path of Mahamudra, from Saraha, Savari, and Maitripa....that of, for example, the Gangama Upadesa, etc.

Sure, perhaps. But I wanted to see what Astus thought. Thar lam Mahamudra is still Vajrayāna since it involves Vajrasattva, Mandala offerings, Guruyoga and so on., all of which are unique Vajrayāna practices which are indispensable to that path.

[Astus]

First of all, what do you mean by a "direct" Mahāmudra path? What are its characteristics, and so on. Then we will see whether or not it is part of Vajrayāna or not.

Direct in the sense that it does not require empowerments or other practices, only the instructions of the teacher pointing out the nature of mind.

[Malcolm]

First of all, what do you mean by a "direct" Mahāmudra path? What are its characteristics, and so on. Then we will see whether or not it is part of Vajrayāna or not.

Direct in the sense that it does not require empowerments or other practices, only the instructions of the teacher pointing out the nature of mind.

Yeah, this is not just not true Astus, the basic practice of this approach to Mahāmudra is guru yoga. It may not involve the two stages per se, but it does involve practices such as Vajrasattva, mandala offerings and so on which are characteristic of Vajrayāna practice, i.e., there is still is purification and gathering accumulations. And more importantly, there is the practicing of integrating one's mind with the mind of the Guru based upon so called "direct introduction."

M

[Astus]

Yeah, this is not just not true Astus, the basic practice of this approach to Mahāmudra is guru yoga. It may not involve the two stages per se, but it does involve practices such as Vajrasattva, mandala offerings and so on which are characteristic of Vajrayāna practice, i.e., there is still is purification and gathering accumulations. And more importantly, there is the practicing of integrating one's mind with the mind of the Guru based upon so called "direct introduction."

Mathes concludes in the mentioned article (and this is what I have said before):

"Our study of the Tattvadasakatika has shown that no Tantric empowerment or such skillful means as great bliss are required by this type of mahamudra, which merely depends on the pith-instructions of one’s guru."

As further reference (although actually both works contain the preliminary practices you mentioned):

Takpo Tashi Namgyal writes (Mahamudra: The Quintessence, p 124):

"if one follows venerable Gampopa's system in elucidating mahamudra alone, it is not necessary to bestow the empowerment upon devotees. In keeping with his system one should adhere to the preparatory exercises he prescribed without incorporating the tantric meditation of Vajrasattva, the utterance of mantra, the transformation of oneself into yidam, and the visualization of one's guru in the form of Buddha Vajradhara, the source of the mystic empowerment."

Thrangu Rinpoche explains (Essentials of Mahamudra, p 89):

QUESTION: You said that mahamudra is taking direct perception as the path. Also, you said that mahamudra is the path of the blessing of faith and longing devotion. Could you explain the relationship of devotion to mahamudra practice?
RINPOCHE: I spoke about three different divisions of the path.They were taking inference as the path, taking blessing as the path, and taking direct experience as the path. The second of those, taking of blessing as path, is the meditation upon yidam deities, the practice of guru yoga, and the practices of subtle channels and drops. The third is being introduced directly to the mind as it really is. These latter two are not incompatible with one another. The introduction to mahamudra is the pointing out of your mind.

And even if we add the preliminary practices, there is still no requirement or even use of the channels and winds in one's practice of Mahamudra.

[conebeckham]

There most certainly CAN be the use of channels and winds in Mahamudra,is some way, even in a path that does not utilize deity yoga or the stages of creation and completion.

This discussion is perennial around here, but just for the record: although you will find all these various elucidations of Mahamudra Paths--a path described as "Direct Experience," or the path of "Essence Mahamudra" as compared to the paths of Sutra and Tantra Mahamudra, in books and even in oral transcripts of teachings, finding a practitioner who has "successfully" received the Pointing Out instruction, or the "Descent of the Vajra Essence," and who then merely maintains the resultant state of being, is more rare than stars in the day time, as they say.

The majority of us practicing Mahamudra according to Kagyu methods are working with Samatha and Vipassana, in a graduated manner, or with Creation and Completion stages. In practice, abiding in Ordinary Mind and "knowing it" can happen for brief moments, but much of the time we are working with methods--whether those outlined in Chagchen Ngedon Gyamtso, or Dawai Ozer, or Chakchen Ga'uma, or whatnot.

I mean, really, who is going to meet a great Mahamudra master and immediately be given Pointing Out Instruction, without some prior training in gradual paths and methods, either by that master or another? It's my personal feeling that the path of "Essence Mahamudra" is in actuality a description of a resultant state, to some degree, and also a sort of pedagogical technique in itself.

[Astus]

There most certainly CAN be the use of channels and winds in Mahamudra,is some way, even in a path that does not utilize deity yoga or the stages of creation and completion.

The only point I wanted to bring to this topic with mentioning Mahamudra was about the development of Buddhist philosophy in India. The gradual integration of Vajrayana to a monastic environment resulted, among other things, in the "blending of Sutra with Tantra". It also seems to me a natural evolution of things that there appeared some who were critical of Vajrayana and, according to their claim, they superseded even HYT.

[Malcolm]

There most certainly CAN be the use of channels and winds in Mahamudra,is some way, even in a path that does not utilize deity yoga or the stages of creation and completion.

The only point I wanted to bring to this topic with mentioning Mahamudra was about the development of Buddhist philosophy in India. The gradual integration of Vajrayana to a monastic environment resulted, among other things, in the "blending of Sutra with Tantra". It also seems to me a natural evolution of things that there appeared some who were critical of Vajrayana and, according to their claim, they superseded even HYT.

This is s claim made by some Tibetans only.

[Natan]

There is empowerment. It is taught that pointing out and Ganga Mahamudra Upadesha is the fourth empowerment which encompasses all four in one. There is a kind of trick to this, as I see it. You get this kind of transmission and if you go home happy and no longer bug the teacher, you're on essence path. There are folks like this. But if you stare back wondering when the siddhis are supposed to start, the teacher next says, ok, you need four thoughts, guru yoga, Vajrasattva and mandala. He'll say yes Namthok are like clouds, but these practice blow the clouds away. Or if you show interest in teaching, you will have to master all aspects of the lineage curriculum. The former folks who go away happy without questions, can teach what they learned too, naturally and unofficially. There are many natural wisdom people out there. They are like Nirmanakayas who use few words. If you keep your eyes open, they're EVERYWHERE!!!

[dearreader]

I don't think many refer to Shingon or Tendai as Vajrayana except if they are using the term broadly to reference all sorts of esoteric Buddhism. Like your use of the adjective “Chinese” to describe Amoghavajra, who was not Chinese but did teach in China. Almost all literature on Shingon I have encountered calls it Esoteric Japanese Buddhism, Tantric or occasionally Mantrayana. .

I would like to amend what I say above. In reading Ryuichi Abe's The Weaving of Mantra, page 191 you will find that Kukai did refer to his tradition frequently as kongojo or vajra-yana. He also frequently called it: shingonjo (mantrayana), kongo ichijo (singular vajrayana); himitsujo (secret vehicle), etc. Abe even explains that the terms like Kongojo are not his creation and that Hui-kuo used them to refer the the tradition as well. These words also appear in writings by Amoghavajra. (page 190)

Now, if this is a useful distinction to make today, I don't know. Perhaps the understanding of buddhist practices is much more broad today than it was 1200-1300 years ago and therefore it is important to be more nuanced in how we refer to traditions. Maybe our friends that call some Japanese buddhist schools vajrayana aren't as far out there as I first suggested.

I did want to add this to the discussion in case it is helpful to others.

[Huseng]

I would like to amend what I say above. In reading Ryuichi Abe's The Weaving of Mantra, page 191 you will find that Kukai did refer to his tradition frequently as kongojo or vajra-yana.

Searching CBETA, there are a number of references to jingang-cheng 金剛乘 (Vajrayāna) in translations by Vajrabodhi and Amoghavajra, as well as later Song translations.