The Slaying of Brahman (Consciousness)

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White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

The Slaying of Brahman (Consciousness)

Post by White Lotus »

One of the final aspects of self that we need to divest ourselves of is Consciousness/Brahman. there are levels of ego. the small I ego originally felt in the heart, the Buddha nature and now in my case consciousness/awareness has been relinquished too.

I will start by giving a quote by Taisen Deshimaru from his book ''Mushotoku Mind. Copyright 2012 Hohm Press: [page 113]
"Sometimes, when Japanese people are asked, "what is Buddha?" They answer, "Death". [Upper case 'D']. In the minds of many people Buddha simply means "death".[Lower case 'd'] They have forgotten the true meaning of the word. These lines -"All the buddhas of past, present, and future attain understanding of this Great Wisdom that delivers all beings from suffering and enables them to find Nirvana" - express the true meaning of the word Buddha.

in the Katha Upanisad Death speaks to Naciketas:
"Delighted at him, then, Death said to him again: well- pleased, the large- hearted one said to him: Here I grant you another wish today... [p 233 Upanisads, Patrick Olivelle translation, Oxford World Classics 1996]
here Death is called "large hearted". It should be remembered that the Supreme Patriarch of Soto, Eihei Dogen studied the esoteric teachings of Southern India. (according to Keizan in Transmission of the lamp, Denkoroku). In the West we usually have a poor opinion of all matters relating to Death, but perhaps it is impossible to find more profound aspects of life without the influences of Death.

"True death, death of oneself" [p109 Deshimaru] is surely a blessing and not to be feared.

With Death's help one finds oneself in a place where all vijnanas have ceased and even consciousness and Self have been slain. One now sees nothing at all and yet there is the illusion of seeing.

THAT and "This" cease to be. consciousness gone. consciousness itself is a higher form of 'self' (Brahman). The No Self has gone beyond the Self (Atman) of Brahman. Not even suchness is seen now and yet I see in a manner of seeing (which is not seeing and has no 'I').

Buddha said that in a past life he rememebered been cut up into pieces by a wicked king (Kalinga?). And yet since he had no concept nor experience of self he was not bitter towards his murderer. To have realised no self and no mind may not be the end of the road. how many lives to go, who knows? is Death actually a door to life? When I say Death I mean the personification or person called Death, not death of the body.

any supporting statements or quotes would be appreciated,

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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lorem
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Location: Fresno, California

Re: The Slaying of Brahman (Consciousness)

Post by lorem »

In legend, Yama was a holy man who believed he would realize enlightenment if he meditated in a cave for 50 years. In the 11th month of the 49th year, robbers entered the cave with a stolen bull and cut off the bull's head. When they realized the holy man had seen them, the robbers cut off his head also.

But the holy man put on the bull's head and assumed the terrible form of Yama. He killed the robbers, drank their blood, and threatened all of Tibet. He could not be stopped until Manjushri, Bodhisattva of Wisdom, manifested as the even more terrible dharmapala Yamantaka and defeated Yama. Yama then became a protector of Buddhism.
Are you referring to Yama (personification?)
is Death actually a door to life?
One of the 6 realms or freedom in the bardo or a pure land.

Vajra Cutter Sutra
"Yes, indeed, Buddha," Subhuti answered. "His sense of personal existence would be enormous. But the Buddha has taught that personal existence is just a name, for it is in fact neither existence nor non-existence. So it only has the name 'personal existence'."
"I also remember Subhuti that during my five hundred previous lives I had used life after life to practice patience and to look upon my life humbly, as though I were a saint called upon to suffer humility. Even then my mind was free of arbitrary conceptions of the phenomena of my self, a being, a soul, or a universal self."
I should be meditating.
hop.pala
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 3:48 am

Re: The Slaying of Brahman (Consciousness)

Post by hop.pala »

"True death, death of oneself" [p109 Deshimaru] is surely a blessing and not to be feared.
Buddha try you kill in the body?You know that Buddha only try to kill you and give nothing?Try to kill your personality.You want,what to do sayed by other(s).?
Did you know that one Buddha so feared from an human phiysical consciousness,as the devil from incense.Of curse Buddha is not bad,only an idiot underconsciousness master xdd.
ShakuShodoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:21 am

Re: The Slaying of Brahman (Consciousness)

Post by ShakuShodoo »

Well, may you let I add my Theravada view on this.

Recently I was studying Ajaan Thanissaro's texts upon this subject. And, at least in the Pali Tipitaka, Buddha rejected both nihilistic and eternalist views on the nature. So to speak, he preached that using Anatta/Anatman as a TOOL- he makes very clear that these are not cosmological/ontological concept, but rather a strategy of practice- one can reach Nibbana more easely. But he rejected both the notion that there's an eternal self and that everything ceases to exist in death.

Here's the text with all the Sutta basing:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... lfstrategy

Know why it's difficult to endure such teachings? Because the ego is one lousy dramatic narcisistic creature- in the meaning that it's created- that tries to live forever in every corner that it sees.

That's why the Anatta strategy is so important. Because without it, one cannot dettach from the layer of consciousness and ego propperly

With metta
Best wishes.
White Lotus
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: The Slaying of Brahman (Consciousness)

Post by White Lotus »

different schools have different takes on the being or abscence of being of the self, some may say that anatta is only part of practice but not a direct experience. there is talk for example in zen of the true self or mind that can only be appreciated after the small ego i is dropped. i am shocked by the pride that sometimes i exhibit in the form of factual descriptions of what i have attained, where silence would be far more appropriate. it would seem that even if experience of i is dropped there is still unskilful and inappropriate mental attitude from time to time. this is painful but helpful, it prevents us from becoming too sure of ourselves.

as far as conscousness is concerned, when it has been dropped there is still ordinary mind, though that mind may be more aware of things than it was before. nihilism gererally speaking is an impossibility because there will always be mind even when consciousness has been dropped. when consciousness has been dropped it is impossible to find anything personal, however one still values ones life! (contradiction). dropping the self also implies dropping body and mind so that one is no longer able to look within.

one cannot talk of eternal if there is not a thing to be found that can be called eternal. the mind cannot be found ultimately. there is no mind, and in the same way we can say that there is no self. and yet still we see things and know things. emptiness implies focus or awareness. ultimately where there is no awareness, things are seen as they have always been seen. noticing things becomes easier, but there is no significant difference between the mind of the beginner and the master. that does not mean that the master finds things as difficult as the beginner. difficulty/opression still remains.

when i am enlightened then i will know what i am talking about. as things stand i have no attainment to talk of as enlightenment and wonder what there is to talk about.

best wishes, Tom.

i must just add that it is not some object we call brahman that is slain, it is our own mind, our own seeing of emptiness that is slain and yet still present as ordinary original mind. hope this is helpful Shaku.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
ShakuShodoo
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:21 am

Re: The Slaying of Brahman (Consciousness)

Post by ShakuShodoo »

You're right, White Lotus.

These intelectual discussions don't bring enlightment. Reflecting upon the Suttas and Meditating does bring enlightment. And when we are enlightened, we won't even bother to question these questions anymore :tongue:

Best wishes.
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