Issues in the History of Indian Buddhism

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
User avatar
mañjughoṣamaṇi
Posts: 207
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:26 pm
Location: ཟི་ལིང་། མཚོ་སྔོན་ཞིང་ཆེན།
Contact:

Re: Issues in the History of Indian Buddhism

Post by mañjughoṣamaṇi »

Indrajala wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: I have heard it is an Indo-German language, can you explain this ?
No, it is an Indo-European language, related to Persian, Greek, Latin, German, Celtic languages and so on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
Hi,

Indo-Germanic was the first name for the Indo-European hypothesis coined by its early exponents. It is especially common in 19th century works, but you still find it popping up around the internet.

Best.
སེམས་རྣམ་པར་གྲོལ་བར་བྱའི་ཕྱིར་བྱམས་པ་བསྒོམ་པར་བྱའོ།
“In order to completely liberate the mind, cultivate loving kindness.” -- Maitribhāvana Sūtra

"The bottom always falls out of the quest for the elementary. The irreducibly individual recedes like the horizon, as our analysis advances." -- Genesis, Michel Serres
Huseng
Former staff member
Posts: 6336
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Issues in the History of Indian Buddhism

Post by Huseng »

kalden yungdrung wrote: When i may ask so, is Indian History your speciality / hobby ?
I have a lot of interest in Indology: the history, religions and cultures of India, as well as Sanskrit. I am presently studying Sanskrit, but am still very much a beginner. I spent around two years in total in South Asia (India, Ladakh, Nepal) and was inspired by the museums and old ruins plus living temples.
Jayarava
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:31 pm
Contact:

Re: Issues in the History of Indian Buddhism

Post by Jayarava »

MiphamFan wrote: This is Bronkhurst's hypothesis but the actual situation was likely more complicated than that.

"Māgadha" might have been called barbaric by Brahmin histories, but archaeology and Buddhist (and Jain) accounts show that it was highly developed and the main center of the Second Urbanization. The northwest was less developed than Māgadha.
I think second thoughts about Bronkhorst's thesis are warranted. There wasn't really a "centre" of the second urbanisation - it happened throughout the central Ganges Valley. A number of wall city-states grew up. In the early Upaniṣads, which Bronkhorst places after early Buddhism (wrongly I think), the centre is Kosala. Bronkhorst's alternative timeline has found few takers in academia as far as I know. Early Buddhist texts have Kosala as a major player - they defeat Magadha in a war, for example. In addition there is Kasi (Varanasi). The dominance of Magadha occurs only after Buddhism has spread throughout North India. Probably Avanti and Gandhara were also burgeoning at the time, although as you say they reached a peak a bit later. On the other hand Pāniṇi operated in Gandhāra ca. 4th century BCE suggesting it was then, as it later became famous for, a centre of learning if not commerce with Iran via the Khyber Pass. The Arthśāstra was written about the same time in the Kuru region, suggesting a sophisticated approach to statecraft amongst the Kurus (and note that the Kosalan kings employ Brahmin advisors). Orissa was a holdout against Magadha and thus must have been a substantial presence. If we ignore Bronkhorst's revision of history, which I am minded to do, then Kosala was the dominant centre of the Central Ganges Valley until Magadha over-ran them some time after the advent of Buddhism. The Central Region area really ought to be called Greater Kosala until it is replaced by the Mauryan Empire under Chandragupta.

On the other hand as Bronkhorst notes, and as discussed also by Geoffrey Samuels (in a better and more accessible book The Origins of Yoga & Tantra), and also by Michael Witzel in several publications, the physical evidence shows two cultures - judging by their pottery styles. According to Deshpande the two cultures may also have been divided by east/west dialectal variations. The distinction between Greater Kosala and the Kurus has archaeological evidence behind it. The differences are wiped out only by the rise of Mauryans. And of course on the margins are all the little tribes such as the Sakyas, Mallas, Vajji etc many of whom may have originated in Iran and settled in the area sometime in the mid 9th century BCE. Some of them appear to have had substantial settlements. The second urbanisation occurs amongst people who share a material culture, and possibly a language or set of closely related dialects.

The Vedic text that criticises the lands east of the conjunction of the Ganga and Yamuna is the Śatapatha-Brāhamaṇa (13.8.1.5). I'm not sure of the exact dates, but it certainly predates the second urbanisation. At the time those criticisms were written, there may have been little in the way of civilisation in the Central Ganges Valley. In addition the comments are partly based on perceptions of cultural differences like the shape of funerary monuments: the Kuru Brahmins preferred square, while in the East they made round mounds (the predecessors of stūpas). In addition the Buddhist texts are aware of Brahmins from the west who have distinctive religious practices, e.g. "The Brahmins from the western region--who have water pots and lotus garlands, who ritually bathe, and tend the [sacred] fires--they take the dead out, call their name, and cause them to enter heaven." (brāhmaṇā, bhante, pacchā bhūmakā kāmaṇḍalukā sevālamālikā udakorohakā aggiparicārakā. Te mataṃ kālaṅkataṃ uyyāpenti nāma saññāpenti nāma saggaṃ nāma okkāmenti. S iv.312).
Huseng
Former staff member
Posts: 6336
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Issues in the History of Indian Buddhism

Post by Huseng »

Jayarava wrote: On the other hand Pāniṇi operated in Gandhāra ca. 4th century BCE suggesting it was then, as it later became famous for, a centre of learning if not commerce with Iran via the Khyber Pass. The Arthśāstra was written about the same time in the Kuru region, suggesting a sophisticated approach to statecraft amongst the Kurus (and note that the Kosalan kings employ Brahmin advisors).
I'm not sure how many figures in the academia now would accept that latter conclusion about the Arthśāstra . The prototype of what we now have might have existed in the Maurya period, but it is generally held to be much later now, such as from the Gupta period (I think Verardi places it in the Gupta period).
Post Reply

Return to “Academic Discussion”