Enlightenment

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
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kalden yungdrung
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Enlightenment

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Tashi dlek DW members,


Enlightenment can sure be obtained outside Buddhism, i guess so ?

If yes how can one see:

- The obtained collective State(s) of Enlightenment inside and outside Buddhism?
- Can Enlightenment be different experienced outside Buddhism ?
- I am not sure where Enlightenment can be obtained outside Buddhism but if i may make a try, then it would be possible in Taoism, Hindhuism.

Mutsug Marro
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The best meditation is no meditation
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Astus
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Astus »

First we need a definition of enlightenment. Then we can see how that definition matches the definitions by others.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
SeeLion
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by SeeLion »

Well, the Buddha was certainly seeking enlightenment before Buddhism existed.

If I'm not wrong, the Hindus have "invented" enlightenment. That would mean discovering the true self, whatever that might be. For certain hindus, it means discovering that oneself is God.

Most theistic religions might not have a definition, since their ultimate goal is often Heaven, which often is explained like a better version of the earthly existence.

And if a religion does not have a method towards this goal ... I can't find the benefit of speculating.
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Kaccāni
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Kaccāni »

If there's a method that produces repeatable, observable results, it's a science, not a religion.

Yes, it is a practical science. The goals and ingredients can be clearly defined, for example as this:

Enlightenment := {A skill to non-react to external stimuli, an understanding how emotions are linked to abstract concepts, the deconstruction of concepts, emotions and their link to achieve the skill of non-reacting, the contingency to freely choose one's emotional state or response, and thus not being bound by emotional reaction to external or remembered stimuli}

If that's the goal, there are methods to achieve it.

Of course, there are a ton more, esoteric defintions to define similar but incomplete goals that don't quite lead to effective methods. Most of them promise to conquer emotion, but at the same time appeal to emotion (all the self-improvement programs that want to boost your ego). People just don't get that those circular goal definitions are equivocal and are not suitable to conquer the underlying mechanisms. But for whoever propagates them, they're good bucks.

Best wishes
Kc
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SeeLion
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by SeeLion »

If there's a method that produces repeatable, observable results, it's a science, not a religion.
At least "claims to produce", I've not seen such evidence ... Can somebody point out the scientific evidence for enlightenment (hopefully not the sutras).

Also, all religions originally have claimed that they are "science" (many still do), in the sense that they represent the truth which is repeatable, observable (under certain conditions).
A skill to non-react to external stimuli
That is quite a tall order. Has that been measured "scientifically" ?

Maybe it has been ... there are states of catatonia described in severe depression and schizophrenia, or perhaps autism.

----------

After some thought, I feel the best definition is seeing, experiencing the truth.

As in where the truth will take us ... there are more interpretations - once we start discussing in the realm of words.

One is God, another one is nibanna, which is sometimes interpreted as cessation of existence.

Tao is another representation of the absolute truth, beyond concepts, but I don't know if the process of enlightenment applies there.

What you describe about emotions, reactions, concepts are just some possible symptoms of enlightenment, I don't feel that makes up a whole definition which could be applied across religions. At a conceptual level.

At a practical level, seems to me that most major religions have elements that could build practice for the Noble Eightfold Path, so I feel you can get enlightenment in different religions (including theistic ones) .
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Astus
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Astus »

Here's one from the Buddha (Cula-sihanada Sutta):

"Bhikkhus, only here is there a recluse, only here a second recluse, only here a third recluse, only here a fourth recluse. The doctrines of others are devoid of recluses: that is how you should rightly roar your lion's roar."
...
"Though certain recluses and brahmans claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging... they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self. They do not understand one instance... therefore they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self."


Is there any other doctrine where no-self is taught?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Kaccāni
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Kaccāni »

SeeLion wrote:
A skill to non-react to external stimuli
That is quite a tall order. Has that been measured "scientifically" ?

Maybe it has been ... there are states of catatonia described in severe depression and schizophrenia, or perhaps autism.
You don't need to go to this end. Think more subtle.
Can you sit still or does that urge to scratch yourself or move take over?
You screw up an important project and have to report to your boss. Will you be able to feel well and confident?
You lose a match. Will you be upset?
Somebody acts in a way you don't like. Will you be driven to react?
You have a bad feeling about something. Will you still be able to do it?
You have learnt that a certain behavior does not conform. Will you still be able to do it?
You are facing a dangerous situation. Will you cherish that adrenaline jolt that helps you be wide awake or will you let anxiety take you over?
If any of the above happens, do you want to have it differently and judge yourself flawed or imperfect because you react this way?
If you see something, and your mind produces judgement, will you fall for the invitation to take that judgement as a truth?
If your ego is being threatened. Will you care?
Just because there is observation, will you follow the invitation to create an ego from it?
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
SeeLion
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by SeeLion »

You don't need to go to this end. Think more subtle.
I usually don't follow this road, but here I was discussing the assumption that Buddhism is "science".
Is there any other doctrine where no-self is taught?
There are quite a few which teach self-less-ness. And once you make a step beyond the concepts, they are quite similar animals.
Jesse
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Jesse »

Enlightenment is the end of suffering. So, yes it exists. It's no small thing to achieve though... The extinguishing of all our karma from countless lives. There is alot of stuff people associate with enlightenment that's just silly. Siddhi's, and omniscience, etc.

I think if you focus on just what Buddhism was created to achieve, ending suffering.. we can observe for ourselves that it works, and that with enough effort/good karma, we could extinguish our suffering for good. I don't think Buddhism has exclusivity over spiritual excellence though, and I believe there are probably many people from other religions that can/have achieved the same progress as Buddhists.
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A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
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Adder
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Adder »

Primordial wisdom and immortality link cleanly to Taoism, just need to associate those concepts with the merging of gnosis with the luminous nature as buddhahood. This can be done from a scientific perspective by viewing things in an energetic and interconnected sense IMO. Achieving it though probably requires the same sort of practises as we are talking about the same human model of perceptions.
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Kaccāni
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Kaccāni »

On a second thought, any art you master, that challenges you to the core of your desires, can teach you the way.

Best wishes
Kc
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Bakmoon
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Bakmoon »

Pratyekabuddhas attain Enlightenment outside of a Samyaksambuddha's dispensation, so in that sense it is possible.
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BrianG
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by BrianG »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Enlightenment can sure be obtained outside Buddhism, i guess so ?
It can't be obtained outside of the teachings of the Buddhist Dharma, with the exception of Pratyekabuddhas, and Bodhisattvas that are reborn on a planet that is devoid of Buddhism, for their final rebirth.
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by kalden yungdrung »

BrianG wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: Enlightenment can sure be obtained outside Buddhism, i guess so ?
It can't be obtained outside of the teachings of the Buddhist Dharma, with the exception of Pratyekabuddhas, and Bodhisattvas that are reborn on a planet that is devoid of Buddhism, for their final rebirth.
Tashi delek BG,

Guess that also the vision about the 6 Realms of existence (Bhava Chakra), is for Buddhists very important.

Buddhism defends that everything in these realms of existence would be based on karma and is temporal.

So if one becomes a God then this status is not everlasting.

But what do others think?
They think that this is a everlasting situation as well to be in a Paradise as well to be a God.

So the exclusive rights are not there to claim on the best fruit related to the praxis.

I guess that Enlightenment is a word related more to Buddhism but i saw here also that enlightenment would be an Indian (Hindhu) experience.

Mutsug Marro
KY
The best meditation is no meditation
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