Samadhi

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HandsomeMonkeyking
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Samadhi

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking »

In https://youtu.be/csAjZ1MwhPE?t=22m36s Alan Wallace sais that the indians found a way to develop a stable, focused mind and have good attention. Called Samadhi. Siddhartha Gautama then took this "technology" and used it to investigate the mind.

So the big thing was actually using this to investigate the mind and all that came after it.

Even if enlightenment is something which might not be doable by everybody, Samadhi now sounds to me like sometihng one can achieve.

The question is: how to achieve this?

It seems this is a very useful "technology" to have in general.
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skittles
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Re: Samadhi

Post by skittles »

Samadhi is a skill you develop.

The goal is to keep your attention on one object continuously and alertly. You keep trying and making adjustments until you get it right.
"My main teacher Serkong Rinpoche, who was one of the teachers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, explained that having a protector is like having a very strong and vicious dog. If you are a strong person, you could go sit and guard your own gate every night to make sure that thieves don’t attack, but usually people wouldn’t do that. It’s not that we don’t have the ability, it’s just: why bother? You could post a dog there instead." - Alex Berzin http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... rs_ab.html
Bakmoon
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Bakmoon »

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:In https://youtu.be/csAjZ1MwhPE?t=22m36s Alan Wallace sais that the indians found a way to develop a stable, focused mind and have good attention. Called Samadhi. Siddhartha Gautama then took this "technology" and used it to investigate the mind.

So the big thing was actually using this to investigate the mind and all that came after it.

Even if enlightenment is something which might not be doable by everybody, Samadhi now sounds to me like sometihng one can achieve.

The question is: how to achieve this?

It seems this is a very useful "technology" to have in general.
Very simple (but not necessarily easy). By training the mind to rest on a stable object.
HandsomeMonkeyking
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Re: Samadhi

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking »

Thank you.

This creates more questions.

I suppose living quiet live where you are not overly stimulated (sorry my lack of english makes it hard to find the correct words here) is beneficial to this.
Still many of us have a job and a family, so the question is:
Is there something like a certain time one should spent focusing the mind on one object so not to decrease the accumulated skill but hold it stable and increase it?

I mean it like this: You go running once every 3 weeks -> your endurance wont increase much. Not everybody wants to be able to run a Marathon, but still there is a amount of running he should do in a certain amount of time with certain breaks in between to increase or at least hold endurance in contrast to just run every three weeks and actually not gaining anything from it because the breaks are too big.
So i wonder: when focusing the mind, doing this only 20 minutes a day but living a live with watching a lot of action movies, having a computer job where you do 5 things at once, etc probably will be so upsetting that the benefit of your 20 minutes meditation are gone soon.
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Losal Samten
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Losal Samten »

Martin Adam goes over the concepts of samadhi, dhyana, and bhavana, and how they are used in Kamalashila's classic meditation manuals (alongside translations of those manuals).

http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/webcl ... t_2=direct
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Saoshun
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Saoshun »

[Edit].
Samadhi is the fruit of insight, not concentration or whatever else. It's not one-pointed concentration, that's dhyana. Samadhi can be fruit of dhyan, but itself is a fruit.

There are various kind of samadhi, which you want to learn? It's very hard if you do not live proper lifestyle but it's wonderful. I wish all people could experience samadhi even for 1 minute, then it would be enough to convert world into practice of meditation and prajna.


and there are various entries into samadhi, you can even over-work yourself to the samadhi. actually that the easiest way and the hardest, if you can stand for example without moving for 2-3 hours you will enter samadhi naturally, there are various methods of standing samadhi, sitting samadhi, erotic samadhi, all kinds of samadhis.
Last edited by Ayu on Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edit of unnecessarily heated speech.
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seeker242
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Re: Samadhi

Post by seeker242 »

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:In https://youtu.be/csAjZ1MwhPE?t=22m36s Alan Wallace sais that the indians found a way to develop a stable, focused mind and have good attention. Called Samadhi. Siddhartha Gautama then took this "technology" and used it to investigate the mind.

So the big thing was actually using this to investigate the mind and all that came after it.

Even if enlightenment is something which might not be doable by everybody, Samadhi now sounds to me like sometihng one can achieve.

The question is: how to achieve this?
Generally, by doing a formal and daily sitting meditation practice.

:meditate:
HandsomeMonkeyking wrote: So i wonder: when focusing the mind, doing this only 20 minutes a day but living a live with watching a lot of action movies, having a computer job where you do 5 things at once, etc probably will be so upsetting that the benefit of your 20 minutes meditation are gone soon.
20 minutes a day is still better than 0 minutes a day! The reason being that you develop skills in that 20 minutes that can carry over into the rest of the day, which makes the rest of all that stuff less upsetting. Less upsetting is always better than more upsetting. :smile:
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SeeLion
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Re: Samadhi

Post by SeeLion »

if you can stand for example without moving for 2-3 hours you will enter samadhi naturally
Chicken are experts at this.
The question is: how to achieve this?
If your daily life is interfering with your meditation practice, consider a meditation retreat.

What you can do in the daily life is mindfulness of daily activities. Start with activities that aren't particularly demanding, so I wouldn't suggest driving or your main activity at work.

If you are walking be mindful of the movement of the feet one after another, if you are eating, be mindful of the chewing or tasting, when you are sitting down on a chair, be mindful of the sensation and the body posture, if you are brushing your teeth, be mindful of that etc.
Simon E.
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Simon E. »

Saoshun wrote:[Edit] samadhi is the fruit of insight, not concentration or whatever else. It's not one-pointed concentration, that's dhyana. Samadhi can be fruit of dhyan, but itself is a fruit.

There are various kind of samadhi, which you want to learn? It's very hard if you do not live proper lifestyle but it's wonderful. I wish all people could experience samadhi even for 1 minute, then it would be enough to convert world into practice of meditation and prajna.


and there are various entries into samadhi, you can even over-work yourself to the samadhi. actually that the easiest way and the hardest, if you can stand for example without moving for 2-3 hours you will enter samadhi naturally, there are various methods of standing samadhi, sitting samadhi, erotic samadhi, all kinds of samadhis.
And as this is the Academic forum could we please have some references to support these extremely dubious claims ?

Starting with the contention that standing still for 2 or 3 hours leads naturally to Samadhi.

Please see the guidelines for the Academic Discussion Forum..in particular the last sentence.
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Caodemarte
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Caodemarte »

Wether or not this is an academic discussion, samadhi and dhyana (let alone "insight" and "meditation" are defined very differently by the same (and different) people at different times. So it is best to define how you are using these terms before the argument begins.
Malcolm
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Malcolm »

Saoshun wrote:Did you ever been/experienced samadhi? Cleary not, even one samadhi makes person mind little sage-ish.
In Buddhadharma, samadhi is a neutral mental factor that accompanies all minds. Everyone experiences samadhi all the time, every time they focus their attention single pointedly.

Different kinds of one-pointedness are given different names, for example, vajropama samadhi.
Malcolm
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Malcolm »

Saoshun wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In Buddhadharma, samadhi is a neutral mental factor that accompanies all minds. Everyone experiences samadhi all the time, every time they focus their attention single pointedly.

Different kinds of one-pointedness are given different names, for example, vajropama samadhi.

That's not true.
Take it up with Vasubandhu and Asanga.
Saoshun
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Saoshun »

yes, I understand yogacara view, but there is good story pointing out this thing from chan lore, you all know it probably about boat monk-master who beated up guy with the sandal? So when he said first "dharmakaya have no form" and after awakening, it's different.

I mean the view can bring realization in some students, but believing that everybody are in samadhi is nuts, there are not even everybody, there is only your experience and expression of those, so if you are in samadhi Malco, that's great, teach me if it's that possible.
Malcolm
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Malcolm »

Saoshun wrote:yes, I understand yogacara view, but there is good story pointing out this thing from chan lore, you all know it probably about boat monk-master who beated up guy with the sandal? So when he said first "dharmakaya have no form" and after awakening, it's different.

I mean the view can bring realization in some students, but believing that everybody are in samadhi is nuts, there are not even everybody, there is only your experience and expression of those, so if you are in samadhi Malco, that's great, teach me if it's that possible.
You really do not understand the point.

Samadhi is a caitta, a mental factor, that all creatures possess, not matter in what realm, desire, form or formless.

This definition is basic Abhidharma.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Samadhi is a caitta, a mental factor, that all creatures possess, not matter in what realm, desire, form or formless.

This definition is basic Abhidharma.
You should make a Wiki edit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi
Buddhism[edit]
The term 'Samadhi' derives from the root sam-a-dha, which means 'to collect' or 'bring together', and thus it is often translated as 'concentration' or 'unification of mind'. In the early Buddhist texts, samadhi is also associated with the term samatha (calm abiding). In the suttas, samadhi is defined as one-pointedness of mind (Cittass'ekaggatā).[10]

Buddhagosa defines samadhi as "the centering of consciousness and consciousness concomitants evenly and rightly on a single object...the state in virtue of which consciousness and its concomitants remain evenly and rightly on a single object, undistracted and unscattered" (Vism.84-85; PP.85).

The Theravada Pali texts mention four kinds of samadhi:

Momentary concentration (khanikasamadhi): A mental stabilization which arises during vipassana.
Preliminary concentration (parikammasamadhi): Arises out of the meditator's initial attempts to focus on a meditation object.
Access concentration (upacarasamadhi): Arises when the five hindrances are suppressed, when jhana is present, and with the appearance the 'counterpart sign' (patibhaganimitta).
Absorption concentration (appanasamadhi): The total immersion of the mind on its meditation of object and stabilization of all four jhanas.
I'll bet that Wiki page gets more clicks than DW.
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Saoshun
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Saoshun »

Malcolm wrote:
You really do not understand the point.

Samadhi is a caitta, a mental factor, that all creatures possess, not matter in what realm, desire, form or formless.

This definition is basic Abhidharma.
but that's means nothing. it's like saying stone posses inherent buddha nature. whatever it poses or not, for the stone it means nothing.
Vasana
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Vasana »

Saoshun wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
You really do not understand the point.

Samadhi is a caitta, a mental factor, that all creatures possess, not matter in what realm, desire, form or formless.

This definition is basic Abhidharma.
but that's means nothing. it's like saying stone posses inherent buddha nature. whatever it poses or not, for the stone it means nothing.
Saoshun, I'm not sure that your response relates to what Malcolm said. He clearly said that samadhi is a mental factor that all creatures possess, which i'm assuming refers to all sentient beings with mind. A stone doesn't possess mental factors or the ability to concentrate single pointedly on an object because the aggregation of elements that constitute a stone do not give rise to that.

I think the distinction to be highlighted here is the difference between the essential definition of Samadhi and all of possible variations in the types of Samadhi.

Think of dancing as an analogy. We can give an essential, core definition of what dancing is, but we can can also list the numerous styles and ways in which one can dance. Whatever style of dancing we list will always be a facet of the core nature of what dancing is just as whatever kind of samadhi we list will always be a facet of what the core nature of samadhi is.

For that matter, does anyone know if there is list of samadhis that are spoken about in various sutras that actually describes what they refer to? The Mahāvyutpatti lists 108 or 118 but i can't find a translation of it.

A section from the Kāraṇḍavyūhasūtra listing some of the samadhis of Avalokitesvara is a good example of just how cryptic some of them are. Some of them seem just about self-explanatory but the rest. In terms of practical use, it may be of no concern.Maybe it's just a case of learning how to crawl before you can walk ,walk before you can run etc

The Buddha said: "Virtuous man, the Dharma-Gates of Samadhi that he has are called:
With-Shapes Samadhi, No-Shape Samadhi, Vajra-Creation Samadhi, Sunlight Samadhi, Vastness Samadhi, Sublime Samadhi, Banners and Flags Samadhi, Sublime Producing Samadhi, Sublime King Samadhi, Illuminating the Ten Directions Samadhi, Wonderful Eyes and Wishes Fulfilling Samadhi, Dharma Holding Samadhi, Wonderful Uppermost Samadhi, Love Giving Samadhi, Vajra-Flag Samadhi, Discerning All Worlds Samadhi, Joyous Well Gone One Samadhi, Supernatural Power Karma Samadhi, Buddha Summit Wheel Samadhi, Wonderful Eyed Moon Samadhi, Understanding Many Relatives Samadhi, Heavenly Eye Samadhi, Brilliantly Shining Kalpa Samadhi, Transforming and Manifesting Phenomena Samadhi, Lotus Superior Samadhi, Superior King Samadhi, Purifying Avichi Samadhi, Faith Characters Samadhi, Heavenly Wheel Samadhi, Refreshingly Cool Dew Sprinkling Samadhi, Wheel Light Samadhi, Ocean Depth Samadhi, Plenty of Palaces Samadhi, Kalavinka Sound Samadhi, Green Lotus Fragrance Samadhi, Conveying Samadhi, Vajra-Armor Samadhi, Eliminates Worries Samadhi, Lion Walk Samadhi, Unsurpassed Samadhi, Subduing Samadhi, Wonderful Moon Samadhi, Light Shining Samadhi, Hundreds of Light Samadhi, Flaming Light Samadhi, Brilliance Karma Samadhi, Marvelous Attributes Samadhi, Persuading Asura Samadhi, Palaces Samadhi, Manifesting Nirvana Samadhi, Great Lamp Light Samadhi, Lamp Light King Samadhi, Saving Transmigration Samadhi, Literal Using Samadhi, Gods Appearing Samadhi, Corresponding Karma Samadhi, Experiencing the True-Thus Samadhi, Electric Light Samadhi, Dragon Sublime Samadhi, Lion's Rousing Samadhi, Sadhimin Samadhi, To And Fro Samadhi, Awakening Transformation Samadhi, Mindfulness Root Growing Samadhi, Formless Liberation Samadhi, Supremacy Samadhi, Enlightening Samadhi."
Last edited by Vasana on Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vasana
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Vasana »

Saoshun wrote:How do you know if stone have or have not samadhi or have or have not mind?

Stone is all the time in samadhi.
Then you should explain in detail why that is.

It depends on your definintion of samadhi + mind doesn't it. That's the point of the discussion to understand what these terms mean in relation to one another. If stones are always in samadhi as you say, tell us what kind of samadhi are they in? If they have mind, what kind of mental changes do they undergo , how do these mental changes occur and are they transmigrating or not? What about a building made of stone?

The outer-elements and sense conciousness's are non-conceptual by nature and the difference between inner + outer elements, sentient beings and non-sentient beings is seen an imputation in the Dzogchen teachings and probably within Chan to some extent too. singe-pointedly concentrating and realizing this aspect is probably a specific kind of Samadhi.
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Malcolm
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Malcolm »

Saoshun wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
You really do not understand the point.

Samadhi is a caitta, a mental factor, that all creatures possess, not matter in what realm, desire, form or formless.

This definition is basic Abhidharma.
but that's means nothing. it's like saying stone posses inherent buddha nature. whatever it poses or not, for the stone it means nothing.
You are failing to distinguish how that mental factor is being used. For example, a hunter uses his mental factor of samadhi to aim and shoot. A Dharma practitioner on the other hand uses his mental factor of samadhi to engage a path dharma, etc. Nevertheless, samadhi is one of the ten neutral mental factors possessed by all sentient beings. When someone properly studies Buddhadharma, they understand such points are noncontroversial.
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Re: Samadhi

Post by Ayu »

Since the demand for academic sources was ignored, I removed some posts in order to make it more clear, what kind of discussion is not appreciated in this subforum.
Please:
- Provide sources for your claims - at least when the people are asking for it.
- Leave out comments about the weak understanding of the others, but explain instead, why your opinion is supposed to be right. Like this the talk could be interesting and fruitful in the end.
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