Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

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Mariusz
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Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:09 am

IX Karmapa wrote in "The Feast for the Fortunate. A Commentary on the Entrance to the Middle Way
That Easily Pulls Along the Chariot of the Takpo Kagyü Siddhas (of the VIII Karmapa)":

There are some, such as Gorampa and Shākya Chokden, who
say that this verse [verse 6.75 of the Entrance] proves that
Chandrakīrti holds, from his own perspective, that self-aware-
ness exists conventionally. They also say that in Chandrakīrti’s
tradition the all-base, self-awareness, outer objects, and the per-
son all exist conventionally, but they do not exist as “conven-
tional phenomena that can withstand analysis.”
These positions are untenable. The master Chandrakīrti does
not, as his own position, accept any phenomenon as existent
or nonexistent in either ultimate or conventional truth. What
need is there to mention his position on the “existence” of self-
awareness? Since the earlier and later consciousnesses are not
[inherently] different substances, it is possible to say, [repeating
after worldly people], that what is experienced initially is also
experienced by memory and that what is unique to that experi-
ence is also unique to its memory.
Thus a later consciousness can remember something by
thinking, “I saw it before.” Yet this relation between experience
and memory is simply the way conventions work in the world.
It is not to be thoroughly analyzed: worldly conventions are by
nature false.


There are also more "implications" from Gorampa which are refuted by the Karmapa.
Please read "The Karmapa’s Middle Way. Feast for the Fortunate.The Ninth Karmapa, Wangchuk Dorje" by Tyler Dewar. Snow Lion Publications

Josef
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Josef » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:29 am


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conebeckham
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby conebeckham » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:00 am

Nangwa-

Why?


Sincerely,
Cone :smile:


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Josef
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Josef » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:09 am


Mariusz
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:38 am


Mariusz
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:56 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:26 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Mariusz
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:36 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:50 pm

Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.




འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Mariusz
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:02 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:03 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Mariusz
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:31 pm


dzoki
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby dzoki » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:29 pm

To be honest it seems to me that (with all the respect to all the past masters) these intersectarian discussions such as Sakya Pandita pointing out (reportedly) "flaws" of Gampopa´s Mahamudra, some Kadampas arguing against validity of Maha Sandhi or here Karmapa saying that Gorampa was a substantialist etc. stem purely from lack of understanding of what other lineage or master is really saying or what they practice and instead drawing just conclusion from outside and from watching the teaching of the other school just from afar and from surface and not from inside. It is very unfortunate that masters like these were also prone to such things but I guess that is just nature of our kaliyuga. So it is best to just skip these little remarks and rather focus on the main point of the teachings. Othervise one will find many of these in many different texts and this will not support our faith in Dharma. Plus many of these could have been smugled into the texts in the process of later reproduction and copying.

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Malcolm
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:40 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Anders
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Anders » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:44 pm

"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

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Malcolm
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:47 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

DGA
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby DGA » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:01 pm


Mariusz
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:28 pm


Mariusz
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:42 pm

Using the quote of the Karmapa I suspect for Gorampa the worldly perspective alone is not all that is needed
for positing relative truth.

They (Gorampa) also say that in Chandrakīrti’s
tradition the all-base, self-awareness, outer objects, and the per-
son all exist conventionally, but they do not exist as “conven-
tional phenomena that can withstand analysis.”
These positions are untenable.


The book explained:
Since the dependent nature does not even slightly exist, it cannot be the
cause or basis of relative appearances as the Proponents of Consciousness
claim. By positing an utterly false basis of the relative truth, the Propo-
nents of Consciousness lose the relative truth of the world completely. In
the view of Chandrakīrti, the worldly perspective alone is all that is needed
for positing relative truth.
Chandrakīrti identifies the relative truth of the
world of no analysis as the method, and the ultimate truth, the realization
of the way things are, as what arises from relating to that method skillfully.
As Nāgārjuna’s Fundamental Wisdom proclaims:
Without relying on conventions,
One cannot realize the ultimate.
Without realizing the ultimate,
One cannot attain nirvāṇa.
(24.10)

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Anders
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Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Anders » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:15 pm

"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra


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