Emptiness in Yogacara

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Malcolm
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:08 pm

As an aside, what the Madhyamakas are trying to explain to the Yogacarin is that they cannot have their cake and eat it too.




འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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conebeckham
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:44 pm

Cake? What cake? Who said anything about cake...???

Hey Namdrol, Kongtrul makes an interesting statement in his Sheja Dzo, in the chapter about "Cittamatra." He says, "Some Tibetans cite the teachings of the master Vasubhandu as a scriptural [source] for these [Cittamatra views]. This is simply the mistake of those who speak deviously by not distinguishing between [Vasubhandu's] assertion that primordial wisdom is truly existent and [the Cittamatra system's] statement that consciousness is truly existent." (p.191).

My take on what is "asserted as real" by the Yogacaras is the "Perfect Nature," (Parinishpanna)--but this has two aspects:

1. The "Unchanging" which is described as a nonimplicative negation, unconditioned, and which is dharmata. It is empty, in my mind, in the same way Madhyamika asserts the Ultimate truth of self and phenomena are empty. No?

2. The "Unerring" which is reflexive awareness, nonconceptual nondual cognition. This is what is "asserted" as perhaps "not empty." But it's not "mind," in the sense that Madhyamika famously says that consciousness does not exist ultimately. Even The Madhyamakaprajnavatara says:
"Let the Nonconceptual mind remain in its own peace.
Without identifying anything or being distracted,
meditate with clarity, free from characteristics."

Save me some cake, would you?


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:14 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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conebeckham
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:26 pm

Great article by detective Khenpo Karl....thanks!
So, it appears the Bṛhaṭṭīkā's authorship is questioned...I wonder if that was the source of Kongtrul's comment? There's no footnote or further explanation, unfortunately. I'm not familiar with the vast corpus of texts that are referred to, of course...it's fascinating stuff. Interesting, also, that even in India there were a variety of interpretations.

As an aside, I tend to think of all this ultimately as less about ontology, and more about practice and experience. I always come to the conclusion that conceptual mind cannot directly know reality, much less formulate some sort of framework describing it.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:41 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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conebeckham
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:35 pm

I'm not sure the "Three Natures" is completely irrelevant, I think it has some value--even if it's "wrong." After all, it takes a mind, even one that doesn't ultimately exist, to even say that things are empty or come to that (non)conclusion! There's some soteriological value to some of these concepts and ideas........But I certainly can't disagree with your assessments about "revisionism," or about the confusion regarding what "early" or "True" Yogacara's positions and doctrines were, given the plethora of late Indian versions, and the Tibetan penchant for logorrhoea.

BTW, speaking of "frameworks of Buddhist philosophy," I bet you love Kongtruls' "Secret Mantra Madhyamaka," the apex of that portion of the Sheja Dzod, eh? :smile:


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:55 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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rob h
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby rob h » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:04 pm

"A 'position', Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with." - MN 72

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rob h
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Re: Conventional & Ultimate Truth

Postby rob h » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:33 pm

Apologies, misread something so have deleted this response.
"A 'position', Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with." - MN 72

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Atanavat
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby Atanavat » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:17 am

The Dharma of The Buddha is illuminating beyond compare, cold, diamond-hard and so very austere. It will be touched by nothing, but the strictest of reasoning and the deepest of contemplation.

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smcj
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby smcj » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:28 am

Don't take me too seriously.

hop.pala
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby hop.pala » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:34 pm


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Astus
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby Astus » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:57 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Malcolm
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Re: Emptiness in Yogacara

Postby Malcolm » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:23 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa


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