Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

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Astus
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Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby Astus » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:47 pm

The and the , practically the same lineage, claims that transmitted the Linji Chan lineage of the . Holmes Welch had Ven. T'ai-ts'ang in his book "The Practice of Chinese Buddhism, 1900-1950" as an important source of information on Chan history. In the same book Welch describes how Dharma transmission was a common practice of ensuring the succession of abbots in a monastery. He quotes from an account of the practice in the Kiangsu area: "In actuality this kind of "dharma transmission" has become a formality in the Ch'an sect. It is a million miles away from the dharma transmission by the direct imprint of mind on mind. This kind of dharma transmission is simply a traditional formality of genealogical succession." (p. 165) Stuart Lachs () quotes from another work of Welch: "Dharma transmission is only an institutional sanctioning of a teacher bestowing membership in a teaching lineage and may be no more than, as Buddhist scholar Holmes Welch said “like [getting] a Flash Gordon pin.""

While Welch was interested in both Chinese Buddhism and Taoism, I can see no sign that he was also a Dharma teacher. And compared to his scholarly reports it appears to me strange to give him the position of a Chan master. Any other information on the subject is welcome.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



zenkarma
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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby zenkarma » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Thank you for this thread. I have been attending at Cloudwater on and off for some years, since Rev. Ogui would occasionally come to speak or was present at functions, I guess that would make it almost 20 years ago, and have been positively impressed by the teaching and the students there. I'm interested to see what kind of response this draws from other dharmawheel members :)
The substance of the Absolute is inwardly like wood or stone, in that it is motionless, and outwardly like the void, in that it is without bounds or obstructions. It is neither subjective nor objective, has no specific location, is formless, and cannot vanish. ~Huang Po

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cj39
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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby cj39 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:34 pm

I did find this after some digging:

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/di ... id=7003544

Make of it what you will.

Caodemarte
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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby Caodemarte » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:46 pm

I would be very surprised to lean that Welch was a Buddhist teacher. I studied (academically) with people who knew him and I assume they would have mentioned it. The controversies over Reverend Soyu Matsuoka, the other "transmitter," are well known. The Soto organization, despite the website's implications, does not recognise his "transmissions" in any case.

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jundo cohen
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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby jundo cohen » Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:25 am

Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby jundo cohen » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:41 am

Let me add that, in the case of this particular Lineage, I have no information about their actual connection to Matsuoka (even other Matsuoka Heirs I once asked don't seem to know these folks). It could be the same as with Holmes Welch, and for example some questionable claim to both. There have been cases of people who only received Jukai Lay Precepts, for example, and claimed to be authorized priests with Dharma Transmission based on just that informal Ceremony. I am not sure about this situation. However, Matsuoka roshi himself is beyond any doubt regarding who he was.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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jundo cohen
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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby jundo cohen » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:52 pm

Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby DGA » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:03 pm


Caodemarte
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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby Caodemarte » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:56 pm

Jundo: "Anyway, the Soto-shu does not "recognize" any Soto Zen priest's Dharma Transmission anywhere unless they wish to administer a Soto-shu temple in Japan or overseas."

That is my point. I read the website to strongly imply that Matsuoka Roshi was giving "transmissions" to this group's founding figures on behalf of, and as part of, and recognized by, the Soto-shu. This is not something that Matsuoka claimed, in fact he stressesed that he had administratively broken with Soto-shu. This is one reason it is a well known controversy. BTW, I use quotes around "transmission" because I question how the site is using the term.

I have no dog, with or without Buddha nature, in any administrative fight within Soto. I have not commented on, and have no ability or desire to judge, Matsuoka Roshi or his teachings or actual disciples.

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Meido
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Re: Holmes Welch the Chan Transmitter

Postby Meido » Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:34 pm

Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei


Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org


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