Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

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Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby BuddhaFollower » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:41 am

Ok, suppose I am a Chan/Zen person.

I completely recognize the nature of mind.

Whats next?

How do I proceed to omniscient Buddhahood?
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Fortyeightvows » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:44 am

"I completely recognize the nature of mind."

Is this stream enterer?

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby LastLegend » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:05 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:Ok, suppose I am a Chan/Zen person.

I completely recognize the nature of mind.

Whats next?

How do I proceed to omniscient Buddhahood?


When you get there you will know.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby smcj » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:08 am

The nature of mind is the Dharmakaya, so "completely recognizing the nature of mind" is buddhahood, right?
My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you confirm it with a traditional teacher first.

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anjali
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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby anjali » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:49 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:Ok, suppose I am a Chan/Zen person.

I completely recognize the nature of mind.

Whats next?

There is no next. There is only here and now. Sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

If you are really a Chan/Zen practitioner, have you had a private interview (called dokusan in Japanese; from darshan in Sanskrit) with a Chan/Zen master to confirm your recognition? That's always a good idea. If not, find and visit a good teacher in your lineage (if you have one). If recognition is not 24/7, keep on practicing until it is.
Last edited by anjali on Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
All things are unworthy of clinging to (sabbe dhammā nâla abhinivesāyā). --Shakyamuni Buddha
Wanting to grasp the ungraspable, you exhaust yourself in vain. --Gendun Rinpoche

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Astus » Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:56 am

The nature of mind is buddha. Any other buddha besides the mind itself is illusion. In other words, once you've dropped fabricating objects and identities to hang on to there is no new identity to make up.

"Bring to rest the thoughts of the ceaselessly seeking mind, and you will not differ from the patriarch-buddha. Do you want to know the patriarch-buddha? He is none other than you who stand before me listening to my discourse. But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch. Make no mistake, worthy Chan men! If you don’t find it here and now, you’ll go on transmigrating through the three realms for myriads of kalpas and thousands of lives, and, held in the clutch of captivating circumstances, be born in the wombs of asses or cows.
Followers of the Way, as I see it we are no different from Śākya. What do we lack for our manifold activities today? The six-rayed divine light never ceases to shine. See it this way, and you’ll be a man who has nothing to do his whole life long."

(Record of Linji, p. 8, tr. Sasaki)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:47 am

And what was the context of Lin Chi's words there? What kind of audience was he addressing when he said that, and in what circumstances?
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Anders » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:51 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:Ok, suppose I am a Chan/Zen person.

I completely recognize the nature of mind.

Whats next?


Whatever the bodhisattva vows inspire you to, my friend.

edit: By completely, I assume you mean irrevocable 24/7 recognition.

If you don't mean that, then the answer is: Now you really need a teacher. Your bodhisattva training has only just begun.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby LastLegend » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:55 am

Wayfarer wrote:And what was the context of Lin Chi's words there? What kind of audience was he addressing when he said that, and in what circumstances?


From my understanding, Linjii reiterated many times that this mind is Buddha, and he many times he also talked about having no doubt that this mind is Buddha, and stop searching externally. This is a very crucial point for Chan practitoners. Most of the time we are deluded, but there are moments when we are awakened (free from attachment), and at those moments this mind is Buddha.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Astus » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:57 am

Wayfarer wrote:And what was the context of Lin Chi's words there? What kind of audience was he addressing when he said that, and in what circumstances?


That section starts with "At the evening gathering the master addressed the assembly".
Note says (p 150):
"Evening gathering 晚參. We have no definite knowledge of what this term referred to during Tang times, but in the Song it was an evening meeting of the assembly held in the master’s quarters 方丈 (see page 131, above). It was informal in procedure, in contrast to the formal service held in the morning in the main hall, when the master took the high seat."

But it's not very relevant, as the Linjilu is hardly an actual record of speeches, rather a literary work. Also, the previously quoted teaching is among the central doctrines in the text and repeated regularly.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby smcj » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:02 am

Ok, suppose I am a Chan/Zen person.

I completely recognize the nature of mind...

Is it me, or isn't this phrased as a hypothetical question? You guys are talking like he is claiming it.
My posts are for entertainment purposes only. Please don't take anything I say seriously unless you confirm it with a traditional teacher first.

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby anjali » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:18 am

smcj wrote:
Ok, suppose I am a Chan/Zen person.

I completely recognize the nature of mind...

Is it me, or isn't this phrased as a hypothetical question? You guys are talking like he is claiming it.

Good point. That was my assumption. But, looking back over my comments, I believe the comments I gave are good whether the question is hypothetical or not. Others can speak for themselves...
All things are unworthy of clinging to (sabbe dhammā nâla abhinivesāyā). --Shakyamuni Buddha
Wanting to grasp the ungraspable, you exhaust yourself in vain. --Gendun Rinpoche

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:39 am

Astus wrote:At the evening gathering the master addressed the assembly


At an evening gathering in the monastery, the master - spiritual leader of the assembly - addressed the assembly - who were monks - about 'the nature of mind'.

'The context' is highly relevant.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Astus » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:56 am

Wayfarer,

You think there is a different instruction for lay people in Chan? Huangbo's records primarily consist of teachings given to and edited by a lay official, Peixiu. See how Huangbo's matches Linji's instructions:

"It is only this One Mind that is Buddha; there is no distinction between Buddhas and sentient beings. However, sentient beings are attached to characteristics and seek outside themselves. Seeking it, they lose it even more. Sending the Buddha in search of the Buddha, grasping the mind with the mind, they may exhaust themselves in striving for an entire eon but will never get it. They do not understand that if they cease their thoughts and end their thinking, the Buddha will automatically be present."
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind in Zen Texts, p 13, BDK Edition)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:21 am

Astus wrote:You think there is a different instruction for lay people in Chan?


No. I think that the word 'mind' has a different meaning in Mahayana Buddhism than it does in other contexts. So the instruction may not be different for 'Chan lay-people' - i.e. those who lived in Lin Chi's place and time - but it might be very different for 'modern urban lay-people'.

Imagine you were invited to address the annual meeting of the American Psychological Association. Your talk consists of explaining how 'the one mind' is 'not actually different to the Buddha'. How do you think that would be interpreted? The audience would be thinking, 'hey, what conference is this, again? What is a Buddhist doing here?' They wouldn't really have any understanding of 'the nature of mind' as it is understood in Ch'an or Zen literature. That is why I am saying it is context-specific.

So the meaning of 'mind' in literature like the Record of Lin Chi is very specific, and very profound. The Mahayana view of 'nature of mind' is different to the Theravada view, let alone to the view of non-Buddhists. So to simply state the idea that 'mind is Buddha' doesn't convey that point; it doesn't really address the question asked.

Here the OP asked 'I have recognised the "true nature of mind". Now what?' Whereas I am sceptical that this has actually taken place. After all, why go to the trouble of joining a Ch'an/Zen monastery, where they ring bells at 4:00am every morning so you can get up an sit for four hours a day, between long stretches of manual work and sutra recitations?
Last edited by Wayfarer on Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Anders » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:26 am

smcj wrote:
Ok, suppose I am a Chan/Zen person.

I completely recognize the nature of mind...

Is it me, or isn't this phrased as a hypothetical question? You guys are talking like he is claiming it.


Well yeah. He writes "suppose I am". Playing along with the supposition, that's how you'd phrase the reply.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

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Anders
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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Anders » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:27 am

Astus wrote:You think there is a different instruction for lay people in Chan?


Often, that is the case.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Astus » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:16 pm

Wayfarer wrote:No. I think that the word 'mind' has a different meaning in Mahayana Buddhism than it does in other contexts. So the instruction may not be different for 'Chan lay-people' - i.e. those who lived in Lin Chi's place and time - but it might be very different for 'modern urban lay-people'.


I see your point and I agree. Chan has its own language that should be translated to modern everyday speech when using to for teaching people unfamiliar with East Asian Mahayana literature.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby Astus » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:19 pm

Anders wrote:
Astus wrote:You think there is a different instruction for lay people in Chan?


Often, that is the case.


That I consider a broader teaching of Mahayana. Baizhang discussed this a bit at the beginning of his longer record, although there he specified that the difference lies not in whether one is a householder or a monastic, but in their level of understanding the Dharma. Same sentiment goes for the Platform Sutra as well.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Path to Buddhahood in Chan/Zen

Postby LastLegend » Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:45 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
No. I think that the word 'mind' has a different meaning in Mahayana Buddhism than it does in other contexts. So the instruction may not be different for 'Chan lay-people' - i.e. those who lived in Lin Chi's place and time - but it might be very different for 'modern urban lay-people'.



Is there a different mind apart from this very 'mind?'
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―


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