Beholding the mind

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明安 Myoan
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Beholding the mind

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Bodhidharma and Huineng admonish us to "behold the mind," "see your nature" and so on.
Bodhidharma wrote:Student: If someone is determined to reach enlightenment, what is the most essential method he can practice?

Bodhidharma: The most essential method, which includes all other methods, is beholding the mind.

Student: But how can one method include all others?

Bodhidharma: The mind is the root from which all things grow if you can understand the mind, everything else is included. It's like the root of a tree. All a tree's fruit and flowers, branches and leaves depend on its root. If you nourish its root, a tree multiplies. If you cut its root, it dies. Those who understand the mind reach enlightenment with minimal effort. Those who don't understand the mind practice in vain. Everything good and bad comes from your own mind. To find something beyond the mind is impossible.
Huineng wrote:Those who realize this teaching do so through ‘no-thought,’ ‘no-memory,’ and ‘no-attachment.’ Don’t create a bunch of delusions. You yourself are the nature of suchness. View all dharmas with wisdom. Neither grasp nor reject them. This is the way to see your nature and become a buddha.
I would like to hear others' experience with this.

Currently, when I practice zazen, I notice that "observing" or "watching" the senses and thoughts creates a "tiring" gap. That is, experience with this intention is almost always "sound... there is listening" and it takes some effort to persist in listening. Or "thinking... now I come back from distraction and return to the body" and it takes effort as well. A lot of coming and going across that gap, and so a lot of daydreaming as well.

When I "behold the mind," I leave the senses to function by themselves. Hearing occurs without needing to listen, likewise thought and intention and so forth. They all seem to function autonomously.
Leaving the senses to themselves, there's no reference point among the senses to meditate from, such as focusing on the breath at the nostrils.
But it's also very energizing, not a dull state, and I'm not startled by loud sounds or sudden sights.
In trying to make "the mind" or "awareness" the meditation object, there's a funny experience of losing the ability to have an object. There's nothing to lean on like "listening for sounds" or "watching for distractions". "The mind" when grasped by attention this way is acutely ungraspable, so it's like putting your hand in water to grab it, and it flows cool and energizing regardless of how tight or loosely you try to grip.
It doesn't seem like some particular state because the contents are the impermanent experiences of the time.

Anyway, I've written too much and again would love to hear how others engage with "beholding the mind," "turning the light around," and so on.
It seems very hard to clearly relate these things, so don't be shy to be clumsy like me :rolleye:

Here's a quote in the spirit of my question.
Huang Po wrote:Why do they not copy me by letting each thought pass as though it were nothing, or as though it were a piece of rotten wood, a stone, or the cold ashes of a dead fire. Or else, by just making whatever slight response is suited to each occasion? … You must get away from the doctrines of existence and non-existence, for Mind is like the sun, forever in the void, shining spontaneously, shining without intending to shine. This is not something which you can accomplish without effort, but when you reach the point of clinging to nothing whatever, you will be acting as the Buddhas act.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: Beholding the mind

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There are so many ways to observe and watch the mind, they all come with various feelings and views that one can try to maintain and practise. But that is still not accepting the simple truth that there is not a single thing that could be grasped. In order to accept that, one just has to confirm in one's personal experience that all the six sensory areas are utterly unstable. That is called seeing the nature of mind.
Platform Sutra, ch 7, p 62, BDK Edition wrote:Not seeing a single dharma but maintaining the view of nonbeing
Is much like floating clouds blocking the face of the sun.
Not knowing a single dharma but maintaining one’s knowledge of emptiness
Is just like the great void generating lightning and thunder.

When such perceptual understanding arises for the slightest instant,
How can mistaken recognition ever understand expedient means?
You should understand the error of this yourself, in a single moment of thought,
And the numinous brilliance of the self will be constantly manifest.
Platform Sutra, ch 5, p 45, BDK Edition wrote:In this teaching of seated meditation, one fundamentally does not concentrate on mind, nor does one concentrate on purity, nor is it motionlessness. If one is to concentrate on the mind, then the mind [involved] is fundamentally false. You should understand that the mind is like a phantasm, so nothing can concentrate on it. If one is to concentrate on purity, then [realize that because] our natures are fundamentally pure, it is through false thoughts that suchness is covered up. Just be without false thoughts and the nature is pure of itself. If you activate your mind to become attached to purity, you will only83 generate the falseness ofpurity. The false is without location; it is the concentration that is false. Purity is without shape and characteristics; you only create the characteristics of purity and say this is ‘effort’ [in meditation]. To have such a view is to obscure one’s own fundamental nature, and only to be fettered by purity.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Beholding the mind

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Thank you, Astus. I've been reading the Platform Sutra with commentary by Red Pine for the very first time :bow:

First, a quote by Bankei regarding a subtle trap I think I almost fell into:
The Master addressed the assembly: "All of you should realize the vital, functioning, living Buddha Mind! For several hundred years now, [people in] both China and Japan have misunderstood the Zen teaching, trying to attain enlightenment by doing zazen or trying to find 'the one who see and hears,' all of which is a great mistake. Zazen is just another name for original mind, and means to sit in tranquility with a tranquil mind. When you do sitting meditation, you're simply sitting, just as you are; when you do walking meditation, you're walking, just as you are."
"Beholding the mind" can sound a lot like the koan "Who is it that sits/hears/etc.?"
So in looking for "who" or "the mind", there are experiences that can be taken as an answer to that question. And they're pleasant or peaceful, so they're encouraging and seem like a guiding light forward.
But those don't last either, and so refuge in subtle states is just as impossible as taking refuge in stubbing your toe.
Astus wrote:In order to accept that, one just has to confirm in one's personal experience that all the six sensory areas are utterly unstable. That is called seeing the nature of mind.
This is one of the clearest things I've read in a while, thank you.

I've been letting the mind roam to try to find a reliable resting place where it has authority.
In hearing, sounds of all type come up and you can't find the place where sounds attain... are they outside or in your skull or somewhere else?
In seeing, staring at the wall makes strange images and colors appear that have no meaning... nothing is projecting on the wall but you see it anyway.
In touching, the back is in agony one session, then fine the next, and you can't even keep track of two sensations at the exact same time.
In smelling, an awful cat crap smell or lovely incense aroma are opinion, and neither lasts for a proper investigation as your sense of smell adapts.
In tasting, the last meal is long gone, and even memories of food that make you salivate suddenly disappear when you lose the thread of fantasy.
In thinking, you can't decide if the next thought will be pleasant or unpleasant, holy or completely worthless... they're like driftwood floating by. Thoughts of buddha become thoughts of lunch.
In exerting will to stay focused, you grow tired and willpower fails, other things become more interesting.
And so on through every possible realm...
So then you end up at, "well, WHAT is roving? What is it that seeks somewhere to rest or something to follow?"
Maybe you feel looking more closely will help.
In being conscious, the senses function of themselves, "ah this is it!"... yet even a state of pleasant relative ease versus exhausting half-successful focus is impermanent, and impossible to build a house on. Awareness of awareness only seems special because people almost never do it. Cats and dogs are conscious, too, but not liberated.
It seems like a mirror reflecting many objects, and you keep trying to find where the many reflections are coming from.
Or like a sunbeam lighting up a cluttered room, and you try to use the sunbeam to illuminate the sun.
The mind just does a funny pretzel :pig:
Dogen wrote:Impermanence is itself Buddha Nature.
So a question.
If ending suffering is a matter of seeing our nature, and our nature is impermanence, and seeing our nature is seeing impermanence, then why in the world do even people who see impermanence (e.g. meditators) fall back into self-views, and why do ordinary people inexorably driven by impermanence fail to see the nose on their face?
Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Monlam Tharchin wrote:If ending suffering is a matter of seeing our nature, and our nature is impermanence, and seeing our nature is seeing impermanence, then why in the world do even people who see impermanence (e.g. meditators) fall back into self-views, and why do ordinary people inexorably driven by impermanence fail to see the nose on their face?
Ordinary people know that eventually things decay and die. But at the same time they believe that for a while it can stay, that there are actually eternal things like truth, laws, love, soul and God. Meditators can be of all kinds, so that itself does not mean they are not common people. Those who have actually confirmed for themselves that phenomena are empty and impermanent have eliminated the concept of self, but that's still not the same as getting rid of the habitual grasping at appearances. That's why training with the correct view is the path of liberation where one bases one's practice on the insight into emptiness. And that practice is simply not abiding anywhere, and when there is something grasped, mindfulness reminds oneself not to be fooled. So it is practising enlightenment, it is enlightened practice.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Beholding the mind

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Astus wrote:habitual grasping at appearances
This is key. Thank you again for the clarity, Astus.
Habituation is why we need training, in short.
But I do wonder why habituation is so strong.
On one end, we have for example a drug addict who no longer derives any pleasure from the drug, but keeps using it anyway. That was my husband's experience with cigarettes until he quit.
On another, we have a meditator who sees impermanence again and again, for two dedicated periods a day and now and then between, yet worries and trembles about what his teacher might ask during the sanzen :rolleye:
And that practice is simply not abiding anywhere, and when there is something grasped, mindfulness reminds oneself not to be fooled.
So in short, the practice is remembering, a billion times if need be, to stop fooling oneself?
To repeat the question, why are a billion times necessary instead of just a few, or even one?
Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Monlam Tharchin wrote:So in short, the practice is remembering, a billion times if need be, to stop fooling oneself?
To repeat the question, why are a billion times necessary instead of just a few, or even one?
The Buddha had all sorts of disciples. There were those who could understand his teaching just from a few sentences and realised complete liberation in a short time. And there were others who required many years. Giving up attachment to body and mind is a decision. And that decision depends on seeing the drawbacks of grasping. It does not need explanation why one shouldn't hold on to a burning ball of iron. But a nice ball made of gold is apparently desirable to keep. So one has to come to the insight that attractive things cause suffering. Then one has to understand that by letting go one is free (e.g. SN 35.71, SN 36.6 and SN 36.15). Practising mindfulness should not be restricted to occasionally sitting comfortably and trying to figure things out. At the same time, habits can stay because one has not yet uncovered the actual centres of holding on to something as one's self. But once it is clear that no phenomena whatsoever is graspable, it is quite natural that one falls into deluded states less and less.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Beholding the mind

Post by Caodemarte »

Dear Monlam Tharchin,

What you describe does not sound like zazen and appears to be quite different (it may be similar or other efforts and I will leave alone the question of what Bodhidharma's wall gazing was). You can, of course, do what you want or feel helpful to do, but if you want to practice zazen as practiced in the Zen, Ch'an, or Seon schools, you may wish to get some qualified instruction. Of course, you may find our that it is just the difficulty of words that makes it sound if you are not practicing zazen, and, in fact, you are! a :namaste: s
Last edited by Caodemarte on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Beholding the mind

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Thanks for your concern.
I practice at a local Zendo and have begun interviewing with a teacher on a hopefully regular basis, and I do my best with forums and reading sutras.
There is a big difference between one's practice life and how we try to put it into words after the fact.
I don't want to mislead anyone, but at the same time, I believe it's helpful to share, even with clumsy words and half-baked practice.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: Beholding the mind

Post by Caodemarte »

We are all in the same boat. I aspire to reach even half-baked practice! (Now even something else to drop....or pick up. :thinking: )
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Mindfulness of emptiness? If there isn't a thing that's graspable, then what are you being mindful of? Mindful of there isn't a thing that's graspable? Well that's one approach, but I don't think that's Chan or Zen. Here is quote from Bodhidharma:

Buddha is Sanskrit for what you call aware, miraculously aware. Responding, arching your brows blinking your eyes, moving your hands and feet, its all your miraculously aware nature. And this nature is the mind. And the mind is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the path. And the path is Zen. But the word Zen is one that remains a puzzle to both mortals and sages. Seeing your nature is Zen. Unless you see your nature, it’s not Zen.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Okay. Leave the non-self teaching at bay. So you sit, you hear, you talk, you walk, you eat, you drop one. That's all you. How is that different from what anyone else is doing? Well you recognize yourself, your activity while others don't. That's all.

But if our every movement or state, whenever it occurs, is the mind, why don’t we see this mind when a person’s body dies?

The mind is always present. You just don't see it.

But if the mind is present, why don’t I see it?

Do you ever dream?

Of course.

When you dream, is that you?

Yes, it’s me.

And is what you’re doing and saying different from you?

No, it isn’t.

But if it isn’t, then this body is your real body. And this real body is your mind. And this mind, through endless kalpas without beginning, has never varied. It has never lived or died, appeared or disappeared, increased or decreased. Its not pure or impure, good or evil, past or future. It’s not true or false. It’s not mate or female. It doesn’t appear as a monk or a layman, an elder or a novice, a sage or a fool, a Buddha or a mortal. It strives ‘for no realization and suffers no karma. It has no strength or form. It’s like space. You can’t possess it and you can’t lose it. Its movements can’t be blocked by mountains, rivers, or rock walls. Its unstoppable powers penetrate the Mountain of Five Skandhas and cross the River of Samsara." No karma can restrain this real body. But this mind is subtle and hard to see. It’s not the same as the sensual mind. Every I one wants to see this mind, and those who move their hands and feet by its light are as many as the grains of sand along the Ganges, but when you ask them, they can’t explain it. They’re like puppets. It’s theirs to use. Why don’t they see it?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Recognize your nature is recognize your mind is recognize it's activity. You walk, sit, talk, that's you. Any movement or activity is your aware nature.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Beholding the mind

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Thank you for the Bodhidharma quotes, LL. I have the sermons those quotes are from and need to reread them.
Becoming remotely aware of our ordinary activity is a bit shocking, especially after so much searching, with everyone around you also searching restlessly for contentment.
Ordinary activity is so pervasive that you can hardly believe it has anything to do with something "special" like Buddhism.
I'll continue reading Bodhidharma, the Platform Sutra, and doing my best.
:anjali:

edit: LL, Astus, how do you answer Bodhidharma's question "Why don’t they see it?"
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Re: Beholding the mind

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There is the one that looks through those two eyes. That's the one that participates in it's activity.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Beholding the mind

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LastLegend wrote:There is the one that looks through those two eyes. That's the one that participates in it's activity.
Just beware of what Dogen calls the Srenika view.

"Who said that the buddha nature has knowing and comprehending? While perceivers and knowers may be buddhas, the buddha nature is not knowing and comprehending."
(Bussho)

"According to that non-Buddhist view, there is one spiritual intelligence existing within our body. When this intelligence meets conditions, it can discriminate between pleasant and unpleasant and discriminate between right and wrong, and it can know pain and irritation and know suffering and pleasure—all [these] are abilities of the spiritual intelligence.
...
we should realize that living-and-dying is just nirvana; [Buddhists] have never discussed nirvana outside of living-and-dying. Moreover, even if we wrongly imagine the understanding that “mind becomes eternal by getting free of the body” to be the same as the buddha-wisdom that is free of life and death, the mind that is conscious of this understanding still appears and disappears momentarily, and so it is not eternal at all. Then isn’t [this understanding] unreliable?"

(Bendowa, SBGZ, vol 1, p 14-15, BDK Edition)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Monlam Tharchin wrote:"Why don’t they see it?"
When ordinary beings want to see something it means perceiving an object, looking at something outside. It is based on the incorrect view that subject and object are separate. But if we examine the present realm of experience there is neither subject nor object, only passing moments of phenomena. Examining means not looking for anything outside, not grasping at anything inside. Examining also means first contemplating the concepts relating to self and other, refuting them, and confirming in experience.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:There is the one that looks through those two eyes. That's the one that participates in it's activity.
Just beware of what Dogen calls the Srenika view.

"Who said that the buddha nature has knowing and comprehending? While perceivers and knowers may be buddhas, the buddha nature is not knowing and comprehending."
(Bussho)

"According to that non-Buddhist view, there is one spiritual intelligence existing within our body. When this intelligence meets conditions, it can discriminate between pleasant and unpleasant and discriminate between right and wrong, and it can know pain and irritation and know suffering and pleasure—all [these] are abilities of the spiritual intelligence.
...
we should realize that living-and-dying is just nirvana; [Buddhists] have never discussed nirvana outside of living-and-dying. Moreover, even if we wrongly imagine the understanding that “mind becomes eternal by getting free of the body” to be the same as the buddha-wisdom that is free of life and death, the mind that is conscious of this understanding still appears and disappears momentarily, and so it is not eternal at all. Then isn’t [this understanding] unreliable?"

(Bendowa, SBGZ, vol 1, p 14-15, BDK Edition)
If you don't know don't understand, would you not be like a rock? What's there to be attached about looking through your two eyes? Walking? Sitting? It appears to be spontaneous as such when you turn your head or lift your finger or hear a sound.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Beholding the mind

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LastLegend wrote:If you don't know don't understand, would you not be like a rock? What's there to be attached about looking through your two eyes? Walking? Sitting? It appears to be spontaneous as such when you turn your head or lift your finger or hear a sound.
The point is not to take some sort of constant subject or active agent as the real self. Also, spontaneity, as something without a cause, cannot exist.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Astus wrote: The point is not to take some sort of constant subject or active agent as the real self. Also, spontaneity, as something without a cause, cannot exist.
So you are not real and impermanent, then what makes Buddhahood permanent? Why are you always present?

By 'appears to be spontaneous," I mean something like you scratch when you itch. Whether you recognize that you walk or not, you still walk. Whether you recognize your mind and its activity or not, they still happen. Your aware activity is your mind your nature. You are not maintaining your aware nature. Why do you maintain something that happens naturally? Your nature is aware. Your awareness is always present whether you see it or not. Is your awareness your true self? Well your awareness does not question itself whether its real or not real true or not true because it is not within the domain of language and does not operate within it.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Beholding the mind

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Monlam Tharchin wrote: edit: LL, Astus, how do you answer Bodhidharma's question "Why don’t they see it?"
The subtle mind is not within the domain of language. It cannot be reached by language.
It’s eye blinking.
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