The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby Grigoris » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:43 pm

jundo cohen wrote:Immeasurable previous lives is one possible explanation. Or, "immeasurable previous lives" are beyond measure and just this moment contains "immeasurable previous lives".
Somebody that denies rebirth may engage in this type of mental gymnastics, for those that accept literal rebirth, as taught by the Buddha, they are unnecessary.
In any case, the pivot point for realization is just this moment. From Shobogenzo Uji:
Nobody is denying that realisation always occurs "just this moment" otherwise it would not be realisation; it would be the memory of an experience or a fantasy about an experience.

We are discussing about how we get to that "now".

The Buddha himself stated that it took a few million lifetimes to reach enlightenment (describing who he was in many of them) and even recounted various experiences that he had during those lifetimes.
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby jundo cohen » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:55 pm

DGA wrote:Better practitioners "get it" (in Jundo's diction, are able to abide in shikantaza) for longer periods more frequently. Poor practitioners like me, well...



I do not believe that Dogen put a time clock on it, but rather spoke of timeless (every moment holding all time) moment to moment practice-enlightenment in which each word thought and act in each instant is the pivot point of Buddhahood. This seems the greater concern than attaining of an abiding, permanent state.

For example ...

Each moment is all being, is the entire world. Reflect now whether any being or any world is left out of the present moment. ... Because you think your time or your being is not truth, you believe that the sixteen-foot golden body [of Buddha] is not you. However, your attempts to escape from being the sixteen-foot golden body are nothing but bits and pieces of the time-being. Those who have not yet confirmed this should look into it deeply. The hours of Horse and Sheep, which are arrayed in the world now, are actualized by ascendings and descendings of the time-being at each moment. The rat is time, the tiger is time, sentient beings are time, buddhas are time.

At this time you enlighten the entire world with three heads and eight arms, you enlighten the entire world with the sixteen-foot golden body. To fully actualize the entire world with the entire world is called thorough practice. To fully actualize the golden body - to arouse the way-seeking mind, practice, attain enlightenment, and enter nirvana - is nothing but being, is nothing but time.

... You may suppose that time is only passing away, and not understand that time never arrives. Although understanding itself is time, understanding does not depend on its own arrival. People only see time's coming and going, and do not thoroughly
understand that the time-being abides in each moment. This being so, when can they penetrate the barrier? Even if people recognized the time-being in each moment, who could give expression to this recognition? Even if they could give expression to this recognition for a long time, who could stop looking for the realization of the original face? According to ordinary people's view of the time-being, even enlightenment and nirvana as the time-being would be merely aspects of coming and going.http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... _Welch.htm


Nishiari Bokusan had interesting words on this (most of page 73 here) ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=yHD ... 22&f=false

Dr. Kim touches on Dogen's rejection of Buddha nature as "permanent", and a better description is a wonderfully impermanent Buddha nature which transcends human measures of "permanent" or impermanent" (all this page and the next) ...

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=gTY ... en&f=false


The idea of a permanently abiding state is, arguably, a part of the idealization and hagiographic tendency I mentioned above. There is a true "perfection, infallibility and purity" Buddhahood which can be discovered in and as us and all this Saha world, and which needs to be realized (brough to life) by Wise and Compassionate behavior in each moment's choice as Practice-Enlightenment. However, we confuse the true "perfection, infallibility and purity" which can be discovered in and as us and all this Saha world with living breathing beings who are "perfect, infallible and pure" - by human measure and definition. We thus demand that our Buddhas and Zen Masters in this world to be permanently "perfect, infallible and pure" - by human measure and definition, rather than simply individuals with great insight into the "perfect, infallible and pure" which transcends human measure and definition and who are gifted in realizing (bringing to life) that insight in this complex Saha world.

Perhaps the simplest story to outline this is the "wind and fan" example from Genjo, in which the wind is ever present, but must be fanned stroke by stroke to bring it to life.

As Zen master Pao-ch'e of Mount Ma-yü was fanning himself, a monk came up and said, “The nature of the wind is constancy. There is no place it does not reach. Why use a fan?” Pao-ch'e answered, “You only know the nature of the wind is constancy. You haven't yet grasped the meaning of its reaching every place.” “What is the meaning of its reaching every place?” asked the monk. The master only fanned himself. The monk bowed deeply.
Verification of the Buddha Dharma, the authentic transmission of the vital Way, is like this. To say that one should not use a fan because the wind is constant, that there will be a wind even when one does not use a fan, fails to understand both constancy and the nature of the wind. It is because the nature of the wind is constancy that the wind of the house of Buddhism reveals the great earth's golden presence and ripens the sweet milk of the long rivers.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/ ... oKoan8.htm


Gassho, Jundo

PS - I brought up the Taigen Leighton book simply because it is one of the very few quotes I can find (certainly Astus knows more) by Soto folks on "jnana". I do not believe that such is really a topic of great concern in our way, but I way be misunderstanding. I see much focus on "Wisdom" but not "knowledge" as such. Perhaps Astus can set me straight, as I may be missing the point.
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby Astus » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:21 pm

jundo cohen wrote:I see much focus on "Wisdom" but not "knowledge" as such. Perhaps Astus can set me straight, as I may be missing the point.


I don't think there is any sensible difference made in Zen between prajna and jnana. Prajna is seeing nature, and jnana is seeing nature. Also, the word for jnana is 智, that is usually translated as wisdom, as in the following passage from Dogen (talking about Huineng first hearing the Diamond Sutra):

"This is just the truth of “Those who have wisdom, if they hear [the Dharma],/Are able to believe and understand at once.” This “wisdom” is neither learned from other people nor established by oneself: wisdom is able to transmit wisdom, and wisdom directly searches out wisdom. In the case of the five hundred bats, wisdom naturally consumes their bodies: they have no body and no mind [of their own] at all. In the case of the ten thousand swimming fishes, due neither to circumstances nor to causes, but because wisdom is intimately present in their bodies, when they hear the Dharma they “understand at once.” It is beyond coming and beyond entering: it is like the spirit of spring meeting springtime, for example. Wisdom is beyond intention and wisdom is beyond no intention. Wisdom is beyond consciousness and wisdom is beyond unconsciousness. How much less could it be related to the great and the small? How much less could it be discussed in terms of delusion and realization? The point is that although [the Sixth Patriarch] does not even know what the Buddha-Dharma is, never having heard it before and so neither longing for it nor aspiring to it, when he hears the Dharma he makes light of his debt of gratitude and forgets his own body; and such things happen because the body-and-mind of “those who have wisdom” is already not their own. This is the state called “able to believe and understand at once.”"
(Inmo, SBGZ, vol 2, BDK Edition, p 156)

Huineng in the Platform Sutra talks about wisdom (prajna 智 & 智慧) in chapter two, however, he talks about the four wisdoms (catvari jnanani 四智) in chapter seven, where we read (BDK Edition, p 60-61):

Zhitong said further, “How might I hear the meaning of the four wisdoms?”
The master said, “If you understand the three bodies, then you will understand the four wisdoms. How could you ask any further? If I were to speak of the four wisdoms apart from the three bodies, this would be called ‘having the bodies but being without wisdom.’ This would be to have wisdom but make it into non-wisdom.” He preached another verse, saying:

The great round mirror wisdom is pure in nature.
The wisdom of the universally same nature is without illness in mind.
The seeing of the wondrous contemplation wisdom is not [the result of] merit.
The wisdom that creates that which is accomplished is identical to the round mirror [wisdom].
The five and the eighth, sixth, and seventh [consciousnesses] transform [through] results and causes.

These are just names that are used, with no true nature.
If one’s sentiments linger not in the places of their transformations,
In profusion does one generate in the locus of permanence — the samādhi of the dragon.

Zhitong [achieved] sudden enlightenment to the nature and the wisdoms. He then offered this verse:

The three bodies are originally the essence of oneself.
The four wisdoms are fundamentally the understanding of the mind.
The bodies and wisdoms interpenetrate without hindrance,
Responding to things in accordance with forms.

All [deliberate] activation of cultivation is false activity.
To guard one’s abiding is not true serenity.
The wondrous purport has been illuminated by the master.
I will forever forget [all] defiled names.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby DGA » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:05 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
I do not believe that Dogen put a time clock on it, but rather spoke of timeless (every moment holding all time) moment to moment practice-enlightenment in which each word thought and act in each instant is the pivot point of Buddhahood. This seems the greater concern than attaining of an abiding, permanent state.


OK, I understand your position now. I think I do, at least. But just to make sure:

what is the difference between someone whose body is sitting in the correct posture but his/her mind is distracted by past or future or whatever, and someone whose body is sitting in the correct posture and whose mind is fully engaged in shikantaza?
Last edited by DGA on Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby DGA » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:06 pm

Astus wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:I see much focus on "Wisdom" but not "knowledge" as such. Perhaps Astus can set me straight, as I may be missing the point.


I don't think there is any sensible difference made in Zen between prajna and jnana. Prajna is seeing nature, and jnana is seeing nature. Also, the word for jnana is 智, that is usually translated as wisdom


This is helpful. Thank you.
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby jundo cohen » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:06 am

DGA wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:
I do not believe that Dogen put a time clock on it, but rather spoke of timeless (every moment holding all time) moment to moment practice-enlightenment in which each word thought and act in each instant is the pivot point of Buddhahood. This seems the greater concern than attaining of an abiding, permanent state.


OK, I understand your position now. I think I do, at least. But just to make sure:

what is the difference between someone whose body is sitting in the correct posture but his/her mind is distracted by past or future or whatever, and someone whose body is sitting in the correct posture and whose mind is fully engaged in shikantaza?


Both are Buddha, and there is no separate "both" nor "Buddha", so not the slightly gap or difference in the least.

There is also no "wrong" Zazen or "right" Zazen or "bad" Zazen or "good" Zazen because one sits dropping judgments of "wrong vs. right, good and bad." The sitting in that moment is just what it is, beyond weighing, goal or judgment, nothing to add or take away.

That said, however, one sits "right and good" (most Mahayana folks may get why this is not contradiction) when sitting as follows:

Simply sit, perhaps following the breath, not grabbing the thoughts that come into mind. Let them drift out of mind without grabbing on, without becoming caught in them. If finding oneself caught in trains of thought, open the mental hand and ungrab. Sometimes thoughts will come, sometimes not. Do not chase after them, do not grab on, neither try to chase away. If finding oneself caught in trains of thought, simply return to the breath or posture and ungrab. Sit in the quiet space between thoughts, like an open boundless unhindered clear blue sky between clouds. Repeat as needed, 10,000 times and 10,000 times again.

But there is more to it (some Shikantaza teachers seem to stop at the above, never explaining clearly the following. Their doing so turns Zazen into only some kind of 'mindfulness' meditation, in my opinion) ...

One should also sit with the attitude (fake it till ya make it if needed) that an instant of Zazen is wholeness in just sitting, the only place to be and act to do in that instant in all of reality that is required to fulfill life as life in that moment ... no other place to go or in need of going ... all lack and excess resolved in that one sitting, with not one thing to add or take away ... judgments dropped away, "likes and dislikes" put aside ... no rehashing yesterday or worry about imagined tomorrow ... nothing missing from Zazen (even when we might feel that "something is missing", for one can be fully content with the feeling of lack!) ... all the Buddhas and Ancestors sitting in that space of sitting in that instant ... the sitting of Zazen and all life experienced as complete and whole as just the sitting of Zazen ... the entire universe manifesting itself on the Zafu at that moment ... Image

A Light manifests that shines through both thoughts and their absence and all the dichotomies of this World. Sit as the clear shining mirror which holds both thoughts and no thought, love and hate, good and bad, beautiful and ugly and all the "this and thats" of the world without judgement, resistance or division.

This mirror holds in equanimity all small human judgement (and human neutrality too!), resistance vs. yielding, division and unity without judgement, resistance and division! So we speak, for example, of a kind of (big "N&J") "Non-Judgement" mirror mind that sweeps in and holds the judgments, frictions and resistances of this world and ordinary life which typically fill our human minds. The resulting experience is that all that stuff may remain ... yet simultaneously not remain and never did ... and thus are present yet wholly changed. It is much as a mirror that reflects and holds within whatever is placed before it ... beautiful things or ugly, angry face or sad face or happy face ... reflecting all without rejection or resistance, without judgement and in equanimity, illuminating all in its clarity.

When the "little self" is thereby put out of a job by the experience of "just sitting" as whole and complete with nothing more to be desired or needed ... then the hard borders between the "little self" and the "not the self" (which is usually being judged and "bumped into" and divided into pieces) thus naturally soften, fully fade away ... only the wholeness of the dance remaining ...

... then Dukkha is resolved, "Zazen is in itself body-mind dropped off" as Soto folks describe it.

And that is how we sit "Right" beyond and right through small human judgments of "right vs. wrong". No difference and all the difference in the world.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby Grigoris » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:50 am

jundo cohen wrote:That said, however, one sits "right and good" (most Mahayana folks may get why this is not contradiction)
What would us dumb ass Mahayana simpletons know? :roll:
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby Grigoris » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:55 am

You're deceived by meditation,
so why meditate?

Of what cannot be spoken,
why speak?

The whole world's deceived
by the seal of existence (bhava),

and no one can perfect
their ineermost nature.

Saraha
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby DGA » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:52 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
DGA wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:
I do not believe that Dogen put a time clock on it, but rather spoke of timeless (every moment holding all time) moment to moment practice-enlightenment in which each word thought and act in each instant is the pivot point of Buddhahood. This seems the greater concern than attaining of an abiding, permanent state.


OK, I understand your position now. I think I do, at least. But just to make sure:

what is the difference between someone whose body is sitting in the correct posture but his/her mind is distracted by past or future or whatever, and someone whose body is sitting in the correct posture and whose mind is fully engaged in shikantaza?


Both are Buddha, and there is no separate "both" nor "Buddha", so not the slightly gap or difference in the least.

There is also no "wrong" Zazen or "right" Zazen or "bad" Zazen or "good" Zazen because one sits dropping judgments of "wrong vs. right, good and bad." The sitting in that moment is just what it is, beyond weighing, goal or judgment, nothing to add or take away.


Ok. Is it right to say that when one is sitting but still engaging in judgments or chasing after thoughts, one is not practicing zazen?

With regard to your description of zazen practice: is the same true of shikantaza? I suppose this is another way of asking: for the purpose of this conversation, is there a meaningful difference between zazen and shikantaza? If so, what is that difference?
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby maybay » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:11 pm

jundo cohen wrote:There is also no "wrong" Zazen or "right" Zazen or "bad" Zazen or "good" Zazen because one sits dropping judgments of "wrong vs. right, good and bad." The sitting in that moment is just what it is, beyond weighing, goal or judgment, nothing to add or take away.

You can add a stick. Then bad zazen becomes good zazen and then we can all go home to our no homes. Horray! :woohoo:
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby DGA » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:34 pm

maybay wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:There is also no "wrong" Zazen or "right" Zazen or "bad" Zazen or "good" Zazen because one sits dropping judgments of "wrong vs. right, good and bad." The sitting in that moment is just what it is, beyond weighing, goal or judgment, nothing to add or take away.

You can add a stick. Then bad zazen becomes good zazen and then we can all go home to our no homes. Horray! :woohoo:


:twothumbsup:

I'm no masochist, but I can say that my meditation has been improved by the well-timed application of The Stick.
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby jundo cohen » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:42 pm

DGA wrote:
Ok. Is it right to say that when one is sitting but still engaging in judgments or chasing after thoughts, one is not practicing zazen?


Hi DGA,

There is --no-- "bad" Zazen ever! Period. Zazen is beyond "good and bad" by human judgment. All Zazen is always "Big G Good beyond and right through small human good and bad" Zazen.

That being said, do not engage in judgments or chase after thoughts. To do so is bad Zazen. Please avoid such bad Zazen because it is bad.

(Likewise, there is never "bad" Zazen ever ... and all is Good Zazen ... but if your posture is poor or you fall asleep that is bad, so we may strike you lightly with the Kyosaku stick. Buddha strikes sleepy Buddha with the Buddha stick. Understand?)

To Zen folks and Buddhas, there is no contradiction in the least in the above contradictions. As such non-contradiction contradiction dissolves away, "Zen folks" and "sleepy Buddhas" and "awake Buddhas" and "all sentient beings" and mountains and trees are not two.

Why? What is the method to the madness? How to live in a world of "good and bad" with a Buddha's total Wholness and Satisfaction even in the face of bad. There is nothing "bad" yet so much bad, so grab a hammer and get to fixing (although nothing to fix). A Bodhisattva's efforts to repair the world and save the sentient beings is such, even though this world is as a dream and there are no sentient beings in need of fixing. Though there are no sentient beings to save, lets set to work to save them! A contradiction non-contradiction resolved in Buddha's Eye.

With regard to your description of zazen practice: is the same true of shikantaza? I suppose this is another way of asking: for the purpose of this conversation, is there a meaningful difference between zazen and shikantaza? If so, what is that difference?


I practice Shikantaza, and sometimes speak of "Zazen" as referring to that. But the other kind of Zazen is Koan Introspection, which I do not practice. However, I have been told more than once by experienced Koan Introspection folks that much of the same flavor of ”attaining non-attaining", dropping judgments, just sitting to sit and such actually applies to both. I speak as an outsider to Koan Introspection however (maybe Meido will comment).

Gassho, J
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby DGA » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:51 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
There is --no-- "bad" Zazen ever! Period. Zazen is beyond "good and bad" by human judgment. All Zazen is always "Big G Good beyond and right through small human good and bad" Zazen.

That being said, do not engage in judgments or chase after thoughts. To do so is bad Zazen. Please avoid such bad Zazen.

(Likewise, there is never "bad" Zazen ever ... and all is Good Zazen ... but if your posture is poor or you fall asleep that is bad, so we may strike you lightly with the Kyosaku stick. Buddha strikes sleepy Buddha with the Buddha stick. Understand?)

To Zen folks and Buddhas, there is no contradiction in the least in the above contradictions. As such non-contradiction contradiction dissolves away, "Zen folks" and "sleepy Buddhas" and "awake Buddhas" and "all sentient beings" and mountains and trees are not two.


Perfect timing! While you were writing this, I started a new thread on a related topic.

viewtopic.php?f=107&t=22382

What you are saying about the distinction (such as it is) between zazen "good" and zazen "bad" was explained in a different way to me, but I think the sense is about the same. I was taught that you're either just sitting there practicing zazen, or you're just sitting there "like a sack of shit." Either way, you're just sitting there.
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby jundo cohen » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:16 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:You're deceived by meditation,
so why meditate?


Zazen is not meditation, and no deception is possible even though we are often deceived. About this, please do not be deceived.

The "why" of Zazen is zazen.

Of what cannot be spoken,
why speak?


Do you know how to speak what cannot be spoken? Do you know that not speaking sometimes says so much?

However, sometimes not speaking is simply being tongue tied, and sometimes talking is just blah blah blah.

The whole world's deceived
by the seal of existence (bhava),


Never any deception, a world of existence non-existence.

and no one can perfect
their ineermost nature.


There is nothing to perfect or even improve, no inner or outer, so let us set to work to fix ourselves and the world!

Sherab Dorje wrote:
jundo cohen wrote:That said, however, one sits "right and good" (most Mahayana folks may get why this is not contradiction)
What would us dumb ass Mahayana simpletons know? :roll:


Actually, sometimes to be a dumb ass simpleton is simply to be a dumb ass simpleton, and sometimes in Zen lingo to be a dumb and simple is to be incredibly wise! Why? Sometimes "knowledge" (jnana?) and mental complexity in ordinary worldly terms is worldly deception, to be without such tangled worldly knowledge and simplicity is a doorway to Wisdom.

Gassho, J
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby maybay » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:51 pm

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People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron

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jundo cohen
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby jundo cohen » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:14 pm

Hi Mayday,

I am not sure what these old Suttas have to say here, but if you think I cannot declare right or wrong, you are sadly mistaken.

Killing is wrong. Preserving life is right. So many ambiguities in the world, such as the killing of cows not known to be killed for our own repast (also in the old Suttas) or rats to prevent a plague or a violent criminal holding a child hostage, but killing is wrong and preserving life is right.

As well, there is an aspect of Buddha beyond birth and death, killer and killed, by which no killing is possible. Such is the highest nibbana realized and proclaimed here and now. Thereby, killing is wrong, preserving life is right.

What can be clearer than that?

And are you saying the Buddha waffled? The Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta:

"Malunkyaputta, did I ever say to you, 'Come, Malunkyaputta, live the holy life under me, and I will declare to you that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' or 'The soul & the body are the same,' or 'The soul is one thing and the body another,' or 'After death a Tathagata exists,' or 'After death a Tathagata does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'?"

"No, lord."

"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.

"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Gassho, J
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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maybay
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby maybay » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:26 pm

However, what was declared by lord Buddha is sadly left undeclared by you, who would prefer to spasm from one wrong view to another, occasionally dropping in something interesting. The full effect you could not be expected to see, but from where I'm sitting its a very tired show.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron

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jundo cohen
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby jundo cohen » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:28 pm

maybay wrote:However, what was declared by lord Buddha is sadly left undeclared by you, who would prefer to spasm from one wrong view to another, occasionally dropping in something interesting. The full effect you could not be expected to see, but from where I'm sitting its a very tired show.


Then I would advise you to sit somewhere else and enjoy another show.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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maybay
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Re: The Perfectly Imperfect Beyond Perfection/Imperfection (Zen) Buddha

Postby maybay » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:38 pm

The step up from sravakayana doctrine to Mahayana is vast and also delicate to get right. You haven't nailed it. But when you do your courage and energy will be a great benefit to many beings. I am sure of that.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron


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