The First Precept

[Shadok]

Dear fellow sanghas,
Can you guys give me more clarifications. Am I violating this precept if I donate money or show support to a political party that directly violates this precept? Eventhough I am not directly killing those innocents, I feel like I am part of it. I am being asked to join union at work. But I don't feel comfortable joining the union due to their affiliation with political party. After seeing so many death and suffering of innocents all over the world due to action of our leaders, I have decided to stay away from politics.

Thanks

[Johnny Dangerous]

Dear fellow sanghas,
Can you guys give me more clarifications. Am I violating this precept if I donate money or show support to a political party that directly violates this precept? Eventhough I am not directly killing those innocents, I feel like I am part of it. I am being asked to join union at work. But I don't feel comfortable joining the union due to their affiliation with political party. After seeing so many death and suffering of innocents all over the world due to action of our leaders, I have decided to stay away from politics.

Thanks

No, that wouldn't generally be considered a violation of the First Precept....anymore than (for instance) paying your taxes is..which most certainly pays for the killing of innocents.

[Motova]

Dear fellow sanghas,
Can you guys give me more clarifications. Am I violating this precept if I donate money or show support to a political party that directly violates this precept? Eventhough I am not directly killing those innocents, I feel like I am part of it. I am being asked to join union at work. But I don't feel comfortable joining the union due to their affiliation with political party. After seeing so many death and suffering of innocents all over the world due to action of our leaders, I have decided to stay away from politics.

Thanks

No, that wouldn't generally be considered a violation of the First Precept....anymore than (for instance) paying your taxes is..which most certainly pays for the killing of innocents.

You can always live in another country.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Dear fellow sanghas,
Can you guys give me more clarifications. Am I violating this precept if I donate money or show support to a political party that directly violates this precept? Eventhough I am not directly killing those innocents, I feel like I am part of it. I am being asked to join union at work. But I don't feel comfortable joining the union due to their affiliation with political party. After seeing so many death and suffering of innocents all over the world due to action of our leaders, I have decided to stay away from politics.

Thanks

No, that wouldn't generally be considered a violation of the First Precept....anymore than (for instance) paying your taxes is..which most certainly pays for the killing of innocents.

You can always live in another country.

Uh, no you can't. Let me know where I can just obtain citizenship, pick up, and move. Thanks.

[Rakz]

Dear fellow sanghas,
Can you guys give me more clarifications. Am I violating this precept if I donate money or show support to a political party that directly violates this precept? Eventhough I am not directly killing those innocents, I feel like I am part of it. I am being asked to join union at work. But I don't feel comfortable joining the union due to their affiliation with political party. After seeing so many death and suffering of innocents all over the world due to action of our leaders, I have decided to stay away from politics.

Thanks

You good. Karma is very personal.

[yan kong]

Dear fellow sanghas,
Can you guys give me more clarifications. Am I violating this precept if I donate money or show support to a political party that directly violates this precept? Eventhough I am not directly killing those innocents, I feel like I am part of it. I am being asked to join union at work. But I don't feel comfortable joining the union due to their affiliation with political party. After seeing so many death and suffering of innocents all over the world due to action of our leaders, I have decided to stay away from politics.

Thanks

No, that wouldn't generally be considered a violation of the First Precept....anymore than (for instance) paying your taxes is..which most certainly pays for the killing of innocents.

You can always live in another country.

The grass is always greener huh. Living in a different country just often means it's a different government doing things with your taxes you don't agree with.

[Simon E.]

Dear fellow sanghas,
Can you guys give me more clarifications. Am I violating this precept if I donate money or show support to a political party that directly violates this precept? Eventhough I am not directly killing those innocents, I feel like I am part of it. I am being asked to join union at work. But I don't feel comfortable joining the union due to their affiliation with political party. After seeing so many death and suffering of innocents all over the world due to action of our leaders, I have decided to stay away from politics.

Thanks

Karma -vipaka is initiated by intention. Unless you INTEND to cause death and suffering an action done in good faith and having appraised yourself of the situation does not breach the precept and does not result in vipaka.

[Shadok]

Thanks for great clarification, everyone. Now I have decided to join the union. Deep down in my heart, even though I am not violating the First Precept, I feel like am still indirectly helping them keep the ball rolling. I can only show my support for the victims when can, and feel sorry for them when I can't.

Thanks again , everyone.
Shadok

[yan kong]

Thanks for great clarification, everyone. Now I have decided to join the union. Deep down in my heart, even though I am not violating the First Precept, I feel like am still indirectly helping them keep the ball rolling. I can only show my support for the victims when can, and feel sorry for them when I can't.

Thanks again , everyone.
Shadok

In an interconnected universe a lot of things happen indirectly.

[kirtu]

In an interconnected universe a lot of things happen indirectly.

(.... and that's the truth.)



Kirt

[madhusudan]

I understand your reluctance to be connected in support of an organization that is involved with activities you find to be immoral.

I'm responding because I've recently also been considering this topic in my life - not being used as a tool in another's agenda.

The skillful behavior of not killing, and vowing not to kill, can be very reasonably connected with the nonsupport of war. And yet, while we might personally be against war, we support it quite materially through our taxes. It helps to remember that you are coerced to pay taxes. Other support, like joining a union, is not coerced, but may be a reasonable compromise. So, to live within the current structure of contemporary society, some compromise is necessary. We need to choose when and where consciously.

It is common that people find ways to reduce being used as a tool. Some have chosen to boycott corporations that do things against their beliefs - for example, companies profiteering from war and involved in the manufacture of implements of war. Because of the interconnectedness of all major corporations, others find it easier and less stressful to just avoid all corporate-produced crap entirely and buy local products whenever possible. Apart from income tax, many other taxes can easily be avoided legally by choosing not to participate in certain activities - for example alcohol, tobacco, lotto, or gasoline use.

When I think about the amount of coercion, trickery and compromise, it inspires me to make more effort in being moral and virtuous. Great thread topic.

May virtue increases!

[PadmeSamadhi]

What most people fail to see is this: if you really are against killings you have to rebel against governaments, because only governaments can declare wars.

If anyone supports parties who are fightinig for making the governament larger, with more centralization, more power to the central governament, you are failing to realize you are helping to create the next Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Kim Jong-il, Mao Tsé-Tung, Hittler, Mussolini, Nicolás Maduro, François Duvalier, etc, all murderes.

It is very easy for not paying taxes to become a good deed, since taxing is stealing and taxing can help the governament become bigger and deadlier.

Companies can't declare war, but governaments do, politicians do declare war and order invasions.
Just rebelling against all governments globally can stop the wars but people are to weak and coward to admit it.

[Kim O'Hara]

It is very easy for not paying taxes to become a good deed, since taxing is stealing and taxing can help the governament become bigger and deadlier.

On the other hand, evading taxes is also stealing (from your fellow citizens) and paying taxes can help your government build schools, hospitals and roads - and maintain them, and staff them.
Mixed karma!


Kim

[PadmeSamadhi]

juggling views and concepts

Leaving the karma talk aside for a bit:

See why people aren't ready not even for Buddhism? Problem is most people have the same opinion of a thief, they think what is someone else's should be his.
What is mine is mine, my money is not "my fellow citizen's money". I'm no slave.

Slavery should end for real, nowadays five months of my work becomes taxes, five months! I'm not a slave, I don't want to be a slave in exchange for some crappy public services.
Five months of my work goes to taxes, if I wasn't treated as a slave I could use those five months for myself and I could do some retreats, travel, meditate, do anything good for me and others. I could simply give one month of my work for charity it would be much more effective than any public service.

Tax evasion is not even a real crime it is an oppressive legal fraud. Real crime is taxation so tax evasion is real self defence.

I'm not a slave, but I want to be free.
Nowadays I am putting all energy I can in my practices for gaining freedom, inner and outer.




Oh Padme Dakini please bring freedom, inner and outer freedom!
Om Kurukulle Hri Soha!
Om Kurukulle Hri Soha!
Om Kurukulle Hri Soha!

[madhusudan]

If I could explore an idea I've come upon, I would appreciate any responses. Maybe this is well known to all, but since I haven't seen it stated explicitly online anywhere, I think of it as something worth discussing.

In terms of morality or ethics, there are two stages. This first is what is not to be engaged in - a negative. The second is to help others - a positive. The order cannot be reversed. In Buddhism this is presented as the 5 lay vows being a prerequisite to the bodhisattva vow. Hopefully this point is commonly accepted, otherwise I can provide scriptural evidence.

Once I understood this, it was easy to see the ordering in other religions and cultures. For example, Hippocrates, "First, do no harm." When hearing that, I had never focused on the ordinal "first". Following that, it is obviously implied, "Then, help others." The Christians base their religion in the Old Testament's Law, which Jesus then completes by teaching the doctrine of brotherly love. The negative version of the golden rule is to not do unto others what you would not like done to you. Maybe there are more examples?

So, if the first act is stealing, the result cannot be positive. According to the law of cause and result, we cannot address needs in the world, like education, hunger or poverty by first engaging in nonvirtuous acts. As it is said, "The cause and result of virtuous and nonvirtuous actions cannot be denied." There is no, "burning the village to save it" or "To make an omelette, you need to crack a few eggs." All sentient beings are precious. Virtue is precious. If we want to vow to liberate all sentient beings, this cannot be done by breaking the 5 vows - period.

I suppose this leaves out allowances for crazy wisdom or other enlightened activity, but I might argue that those enlightened Buddhas achieved that state by first going through the basic or foundational practices and views.

Thanks and sorry for the semi hijack.

[Sherlock]

You should read A Clear Differentiation of the Three Codes on how the different vows interact, that or Buddhist Ethics by Jamgon Kongtrul.

In Mahayana you do not need to slavishly adhere to the pratimoksha vows at all, there is the famous example of the ship captain killing a passenger who intended to kill the rest of the passengers. The higher vows supersede the lower ones if there is any conflict.

If you want to bring in an Abrahamic example, it is like Jesus new covenant superseding the old one. Otherwise Christians should follow all the Jewish laws too.

[madhusudan]

I will definitely check out (literally - from the library) the books you suggested.

There are many interesting propositions exploring the limits and exceptions to basic common morality, such as the ship's captain example, and yet as an ordinary being I hope to have enough humility to admit that I may go searching for exceptions which, through self-clinging and craving, benefit myself directly or indirectly. So, I think it's a somewhat dangerous area. Judgement and discernment must be clear and impeccable. I personally find much relief, like cool water on a hot day, in strictly following the basis of morality.

I'm not sure that I agree with the Mahayana not requiring a "slavish" adherence to ethical conduct, though I know I've seen that proposition before. First, because following ethical conduct is liberating. Second, I disagree that the vows are no longer required within bodhisattva conduct. In the interests of continuing this discussion and arriving at a fuller understanding, please cite some textual basis for your claim. Here I will provide my own:

On pages 144-145 in Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen Rinpoche's translation of the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, Gampopa writes on The Method: Refuge and Precepts in the section on Analogy, "It is not proper to invite a monarch to reside in a place where there is dung, dirt or uncleanliness. That place should be well cleaned and adorned with many ornaments. So likewise, one cannot invite the king of bodhicitta to reside where the body, speech and mind are not bound from the nonvirtues and are stained with the dirt of negative karma."

He then goes on in the section Scriptural Authority to give citation from The Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment which says, "One who keeps One of the seven praktimoksa precepts Has the fortune to receive bodhisattva precepts. Otherwise, not."

In the section Reasoning Gampopa writes, "By taking praktimoksa precepts, one abandons causing harm to others and having harmful motives. The bodhisattva's vow causes one to benefit others. Without avoiding harm, there is no method of benefitting others."

So, based on a straightforward reading of those passages, which I also happen to agree with based on my own reasoning, it seems to me that ethical conduct is a prerequisite to helping others. I am open to learning more and correcting my view.

To me this is a vital understanding because it is counter to the contemporary social guiding principles of moral relativism and utilitarian "greatest good" and "ends justify the means" which cause so much suffering in the world today.

[Johnny Dangerous]

It is very easy for not paying taxes to become a good deed, since taxing is stealing and taxing can help the governament become bigger and deadlier.

On the other hand, evading taxes is also stealing (from your fellow citizens) and paying taxes can help your government build schools, hospitals and roads - and maintain them, and staff them.
Mixed karma!


Kim

If you live America, just barely lol.

[Kim O'Hara]

juggling views and concepts

Leaving the karma talk aside for a bit:

See why people aren't ready not even for Buddhism? Problem is most people have the same opinion of a thief, they think what is someone else's should be his.
What is mine is mine, my money is not "my fellow citizen's money". I'm no slave.

Slavery should end for real, nowadays five months of my work becomes taxes, five months! I'm not a slave, I don't want to be a slave in exchange for some crappy public services.
Five months of my work goes to taxes, if I wasn't treated as a slave I could use those five months for myself and I could do some retreats, travel, meditate, do anything good for me and others. I could simply give one month of my work for charity it would be much more effective than any public service.

Tax evasion is not even a real crime it is an oppressive legal fraud. Real crime is taxation so tax evasion is real self defence.

I'm not a slave, but I want to be free.
Nowadays I am putting all energy I can in my practices for gaining freedom, inner and outer.

Do you use public roads? Publicly funded hospitals? Rely on public safety provided by the police/army? Were you educated in publicly-funded schools?
If your answers are yes, yes, yes and yes - as they are very likely to be - then your taxes are the cost of services you use and have used, and your argument falls down. Paying for what you receive is absolutely normal and absolutely fair.
There are still valid arguments about how much tax you should be paying, whether the tax regime is fair, and how taxes should be spent. Please participate in those discussions - the system certainly needs improving!


Kim

[Sherlock]

Madhudasan,

The different schools have different perspectives on how the vows interact, but the example of the ship captain kiling the murderous passenger with the intent to save him from the hells and the lives of the other paseneger is from the sutras as an example of upaya, I don't know think any school would disagree with this example.

This is just in cases where there are conflicts between pratimoksha and higher vows. Most of the time you can hold all vows without conflict. It's harder to keep samaya pure than pratimoksha probably.

You can read Buddhist Ethics for how the different schools view pratimoksha. There were many different views already in India.