Dropping Jesus

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Urgyen Dorje
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Dropping Jesus

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

I recently encountered some rhetoric on this board that was so viscertally hateful of Christians and Christianity that it chilled my blood. it is something so contrary to my dharma experience and training that I couldn't get my mind around it. It kept me up at night.

Something I learned very eary in my Buddhist practice is that regardless of our religious upbringings, there is, lurking in our minds, all sorts of ghosts and demons related to religion. Maybe from how we were raised, maybe from cultural osmosis. Maybe good, maybe bad. But it's there.

I recently received teachings from my root lama, and at the conclusion of an empowerment, at the part where samaya is given, he said that it is a breach of our commitments to have any wrong views about, or to disparage, a practitioner of any religion (meaning nonworldly religion, such as one that hurts animals or does magic to hurt beings), and that we are all fellow spiritual bretheren.

I like Thich Nhat Hahn's book on Buddha and Christ. For some reason, speaking in an ecumenical fashion about Buddhism and Christianity gets people's hackles up. I've seen Thay ripped by Buddhists and well as Christians alike for being heterodoxical. But as Thay shows us, we have these roots, they're not going anywhere, which is why great masters like His Holiness the Dalai Lama encourage people to stick with their native religions: the roots are there, they're viable-- why not water them and collect the fruit? Deep wisdom.

I'd be bold enough to say that any of us brought up with a religious context strong enough to imprint us deeply-- are destined to be hybrids of Christianity & Buddhism, or Judaism & Buddhism, or whatever. I can already hear the orthodox salivating, circling, so let me clarify that I don't mean we're destined as Buddhists to believe in the god of Abraham, because of our previous religious exposure. No. No. That's wrong view. But what we do have to do is deal with all the energy that former religious experiences stirs up in us. I see a Virgin Mary and I feel something. I see a Madonna and Child, something happens in me. That's not going away. I can surpress it but it will just get bigger. iIam a good enough of a meditator to know that. I can try to nuke it with something, mantras, whatever, but the mind doesn't work that way. Imprints are deep. But but but... say the orthodox, those symbols don't have a meaning in the Buddhist context. No, they don't. They have a meaning to me. Marian images. But also ravens. The sound of the cello. Hoppy beer. It's more about me than Christianity or maybe even about religion. I have to work with my ravens ever bit as much as my Lady of Czestochowa.

So I was never raised in a religious way, but Marian images move me. Karma? Maybe I just like women? I don't know. Doesn't matter. So I own them as Tara. I can hear the orthodox licking their lips, circling, waiting for a shot at my belly, but I don't care. I'm not the only one. I know of Tibetans, stone cold orthodox vajrayana practitioners who have done the same. Tara is as Tara does.

My root teacher once said that Christ was a bodhisattva and should be as one, and since the, that has been my upaya. I see Moses and Mohammed that way as well. And here come the orthodox, wanting to take me out for appropriating foreign religious symbols into Buddhist practice. After all, am I not committed to Buddhist culture?

My counter to all objections is-- we are to train in seeing everyone as a buddha or bodhisattva. All men as Chenrezig, all Women as Tara. Why is it a problem with Jesus? Really, why is it a problem with Jesus or Mary when it's not a problem with the guy who fixes my copy machine and my exwife's mother? So the orthodox come for me, and say: Hey! You're making a theological argument. A statement. You're being syncretic. Obviously the New Testament is not in accordance with the view of the Great Madhyamaka. No, it's not. But it is also our training to see all beings as buddhas and all speach as the dharma. If the speach is at all useful to beings, then it is really the dharma. Perhaps a worldly dharma, perhaps a supermundane dharma, it depends upon the eyes of beings and their minds.

I remember when I first studied with my first lama. He was an inji covert like me, which was great as he *knew me*-- he knew my culture. I'd ask him all sorts of a questions as a 20-something noob, many of the questions ethical in nature because of the things 20-something young men get themselves into. I remember one day he just said to me:
Put Jesus down! He's dead! He's starting to stink!
I was really shocked. I didn't know what to think. He was a wild and crazy dude, something of a mahasiddha and a Zen master rolled into one. Years later I recognize the analogy to the Zen story of the two monks crossing a river, and one monk carries a woman across, against his vows. On the other side, his fellow monk chides him, to which he responds, "drop the woman, I did an hour ago!"

Lama was trying to get me to drop all my religious baggage. Get closer to my roots. Own and embrace it. Get comfortable with it. And then it's as significant as being 5'10".
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I get where you are coming from, I think it's fruitless to judge other paths, we don't have capacity.

At the same time,a couple things i'd point out:

Some people have exceptionally negative experiences with Christianity in the US especially, and for good reason, Some Christian institutions (though certainly not all) have been responsible for extremely nefarious stuff. In addition, some of the more fundamentalist version of Christianity are downright Dystheistic, if this is what you grew up around (I did), then this is your association with it. Angry, racist, sexist God who wants to punish the world for it's sins, and will only save you if you buy his brand. It scared the crap out of me as a kid, left scars on me even though my family wasn't even like that, indoctrination came from friends parents etc. I find it hard to come to terms with people who have this kind of religious practice. I understand they are just trying to find peace as I am, but i'd be lying if I said I thought we had anything in common spiritually.

I know all Christians are not like that, but plenty in the US are.
But it is also our training to see all beings as buddhas and all speach as the dharma. If the speach is at all useful to beings, then it is really the dharma
Right, but Christianity (especially the modern version) seems far away from what little we can piece together of Christ's teachings, and often seems to be quite a frightening, angry religion in the US. I don't wonder that people aren't interested in it, or would simply prefer to maintain a neutral view towards it in their practice. get told you're going to burn in hell enough times as a little kid and it tends to have that effect.

Also, these same people (who IMO are the most loud public face of Christianity in the US) would be incredibly offended for someone to view Christ as Bodhisattva, rather than as the only hope of salvation for everyone ever - because that's what they believe.

Lastly, Buddha was clear that eternalist and nihilist paths aren't Dharma, just pick a sutra where he refutes such views lol. They may have something to recommend them, and some beings are walking them for good reasons, in accordance with their Karma..but by definition, they can't be Dharma. Still, this is all technical talk, the best is to do our utmost to view others as purely as possible and walk our own paths, doing our best to let go of baggage which we accrued since beginning less time - like mine with Christians:), and opening our hearts as much as we can. I think it's good for us to not judge religions by those adherents who fail to practice them, but sometimes when you see enough of that, it colors your perspective quite deeply.

P.S. I'm married to an observant Jew, so I see the merit of respecting, (and even studying to some degree) other traditions, but I think viewing other teachers as Bodhisattva etc. as a policy can actually be harmful for some, some other religions would find that insulting and perhaps even imperialistic in a sense. it all depends on the individual..and certainly how you view things is your own vision anyway, trying to get other people to discard it or take it up is a "meh" effort. We all have our own Karma to work out as that stuff goes.
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Wayfarer »

I have books by Thomas Merton and Reuben Habito on Zen Christianity. I find it very congenial to my outlook. Here are some readings.

Zazen and Christianity

New Seeds Priory


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Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

For the record, I'm not trying to make a rigorous philosophical argument.

One of my struggles with this board is that everyone seems to want to take every post as an attempt to make not only an intellectual and philosophical statement, but also an intellectual and philosohpical commitment.

I'm from the Roman Catholic immigrant neighborhoods of the industral Northeast, and transplanted, have been in the Deep South, the Bible Belt, for thirty years. I get the hate that is rolled out in the name of Jesus Christ. I get it. I have seen it and lived it. I've had the s**t beatten out of me.

I also understand the pain heavy handed religious trips cause people. In college my best friend's girlfriend and fiancee committed suicide after a heavy religious trip was laid on her. So I get it.

I also understand that calling Jesus a bodhisattva would probably not be something most Christians would appreciate. I've been around academia long enough to be trained in PC to understand that would be seen as a form of appropriation and thus highly uncool.

I'm really just sharing my own struggle with this. I didn't know where to file it. Personal Experience? Lounge? Feel free to move it.

I picked ethics because I have watched so many fellow Buddhists go off their rails as they either repress, deny, or rage against their native religious overlays. It's very explosive here in the Deep South.

Sometimes hanging out with sangha, maybe a tsok or a book discussion or a open house, it seems that everybody, at least those talking are all talking about Jesus. I'm like, OK. I'm chill with that. Let's target the bodhictta and love end of things, that's dharma.

Then sometimes it seems that the whole sangha discussion is all anti-Christian. Christianity sucks. God is dead. Screw 'em all. And Buddhism is posed as this alternative to Christianty, almost like clashing cultures or political parties. And in those cases I'm like, OK, let's turn this around, and keep it from getting dark.

Sometimes it's the same people on different days. In which case I'm realizing we've got some turmoil going on.

I've had this turmoil myself as I described.

My personsal observation, at least in my own mind, is that orthodoxy can't be forced, because of all this subconsciousness energy related to religion in this culture. It's there. Push it down and it will grow nine heads and eighteen tails and come at you... As such, in my view, there is nothing heterodoxical with having a very precise Buddhist view while one plays with one's imprints, perhaps exorcising some while befriending others.

That's just my two cents. Again, feel free to file elsewhere.
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

My personsal observation, at least in my own mind, is that orthodoxy can't be forced, because of all this subconsciousness energy related to religion in this culture. It's there. Push it down and it will grow nine heads and eighteen tails and come at you... As such, in my view, there is nothing heterodoxical with having a very precise Buddhist view while one plays with one's imprints, perhaps exorcising some while befriending others.

That's just my two cents. Again, feel free to file elsewhere
It's fine here I think.

Well, really I think most religious dialogue, including 90% of the discussions i've been involved in, are propelled by the eight worldy Dharmas..and that includes conversations on "both sides", those who want to "just get along" and those who want to draw sharp lines. I don't know what your first lama meant by "put Jesus down" or whatever, but he is probably right, so much of these kinds of argument is just ego-masturbation really..and I've seen that from the side of people wanting to respect other religions, and those that wish to have none of it. I remember talking to my own teacher about how to relate to people of vastly different religions or strongly held beliefs than me (since i'm married to one, and am often around Jews, Sikhs, Atheists and others) and he said something like "they are just trying to find some peace in the world like you"...and basically, that there was no need to examine it beyond that. this is one of the reasons that I don't even tell people I am "religious", or even talk to people about Buddhism unless they generally are interested and ask questions..most of the time we discuss religion, it is not really about religion.

There is a rule in my sangha discussion group that we don't go off on tangents about 'inter-religious' dialogue. IMO it's a good rule, of course there are always occasional parallels to be drawn etc..but one we start to make side by side comparisons and say "is this different, is this the same"...the eight worldly Dharmas are not far behind that kind of conversation - whichever side you approach it from. There are no real answers there, IMO..it's comparison for the sake of comparison, which often quickly leads into different agendas.
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Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
My personsal observation...

most of the time we discuss religion, it is not really about religion.
... since I seem to be "on notice" by a half dozen or so people on DW for wrong views, I can't help but ask what you think I'm trying to say here?
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
My personsal observation...

most of the time we discuss religion, it is not really about religion.
... since I seem to be "on notice" by a half dozen or so people on DW for wrong views, I can't help but ask what you think I'm trying to say here?
I don't know, it seems like you are just trying to express your own experiences with Dharma growing up in a predominantly Christian culture. If someone has put you "on notice" it isn't me, I don't find any great fault with what you are saying, i'm just throwing my own views out there. The only point i'm trying to make is that once inter-religious stuff moves past simple mutual respect, and into the territory of comparison, it enters the world of people's agendas and narratives, and becomes a circular enterprise..IMO.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Malcolm »

Urgyen Dorje wrote:I recently encountered some rhetoric on this board that was so viscertally hateful of Christians and Christianity that it chilled my blood. it is something so contrary to my dharma experience and training that I couldn't get my mind around it. It kept me up at night.

As for myself, I am simply indifferent to Christianity. I find it weird the same way they find Buddhadharma weird. I cannot relate to a soul or a personal savior (or even an impersonal one at that). I can't relate to the Jesus myth on any level in a spiritual sense. It does not move me any more than any other story of humans being cruel to other humans, and in many respects, far less.
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

I'm largely indifferent to it too actually.

The model I came up with is that there are Catholics, Jews, and everyone else, and these categories refer less to actual religious beliefs, but subcultures, since most everyone except old ladies largely left the Church and Synogogue and become secularized. Exceptions sure, it would be interesting to write about them, but that's the gist.

The Bible Belt creeps me out. I go way under the radar. Stealth.

But I dig Marian images. Guadalupe-- whoa.

I dig some of the mystics.

Beyond that, I can't make it through most of the source materials outside the Tanakh and the synoptic gospels.

But that stuff is still packed in there somewhere. If I go to a Catholic mass, there's all sorts of stuff coming up. I just call it dakas and dakinis in my guru's entourage, look at it square on, and enjoy the display.

<< Heretic!
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Caodemarte »

Strangely, it was only by studying Buddhism and the cheerfully provocative use (provocative at least among Amerian Buddhists) of Chriistian terms to explain Buddhism by Zen roshis that I began to understand the Christianity I was raised in. Suddenly I realized what they were talking about. I discovered that my childish understanding of God as a magician in the sky, as the Pope ridiculed it, was what I rejected, not what Christianity is actually concerned with. I have not become Christian as a result, but I respect and understand (I hope) much more. Buddhism vastly improved my tolerance and sympathy for other relgions.

I am so sad that it seems to have become an excuse for spreading more ignorance, more intolerance and more bigotry by some. In particular, I have been schocked by the ignorance and hatred of Islam among apparent Buddhists as shown on Dharmawheel as well as bigotry against Christianity. I know that this exists among the general Western population now with Muslims as safe targets, but somehow I thought Buddhists were a bit more tolerant. Maybe a good lesson.
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

it is something so contrary to my dharma experience and training….
Mine too, although I won't elaborate for fear of creating a firestorm.
...regardless of our religious upbringings, there is, lurking in our minds, all sorts of ghosts and demons related to religion. Maybe from how we were raised, maybe from cultural osmosis. Maybe good, maybe bad. But it's there.
As I've said elsewhere, I think one of the major impediments that western Buddhists have is their unresolved issues with Christianity. As you've noticed any mention of it creates a firestorm. That's not a blank slate for hearing the teachings of Dharma. I liken it to a man having problems with his wife or girlfriend because he has unresolved issues with his mother. In the Tibetan Lam Rim it is likened to receiving the teachings in a dirty pot.

My second oft posted position is that Christianity can be beneficial if done right. Specifically 12 step programs can produce remarkably happy and healthy people even if done in a specifically christian context. That's not to say that I see 12 step programs as Christian. I've seen multiple quotes where Bill W. celebrated that fact that Buddhists in Japan were able to put 12 step program into a buddhist context. So 12 step spirituality really is generic.
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I'd like to do something weird here, which is offer an opinion that I know is false. I've had it explained to me by my teacher and I can see that he is right, but I still harbor my own opinion.

My errant opinion is that any spirituality, when done correctly, makes people happier and more sane. As a generalization that has some truth in it. (I don't need to say what happens when religion isn't done correctly.) It certainly is true in 12 step spirituality. But in a buddhist context, as has been explained to me, that ignores the factor of individual karma. Some people's negative karma makes Dharma difficult and painful. Others have an easier time of it. Milarepa's spiritual journey was certainly no barrel of laughs. Hence I admit my opinion is not accurate, but it sure seems to be the case from where I sit. Sometimes we just have to get past our negative issues left over from prior painful experiences and non-negotiable conclusions. Isn't that worth it?
In particular, I have been schocked by the ignorance and hatred of Islam among apparent Buddhists as shown on Dharmawheel...
Along the lines of my "…if done correctly" idea, I'd like to point out that Rumi seems to have culled beauty, happiness and sanity from Islam.
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by srivijaya »

Urgyen Dorje wrote: But I dig Marian images. Guadalupe-- whoa.

I dig some of the mystics.
A dangerous heretic for sure but let that be their problem. There are things which resonate within us beyond all religious conventions because they are some kind of deeper sub-conscious archetypes. For us, they point at the dharma (I mean that in a pure unrelated-to-any-religion sense).
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by DGA »

srivijaya wrote:
Urgyen Dorje wrote: But I dig Marian images. Guadalupe-- whoa.

I dig some of the mystics.
A dangerous heretic for sure but let that be their problem. There are things which resonate within us beyond all religious conventions because they are some kind of deeper sub-conscious archetypes. For us, they point at the dharma (I mean that in a pure unrelated-to-any-religion sense).
Well, that's a separate discussion--the relation of the Jungian all-religions-are-one-and-this-is-not-a-religion religion, and Buddha Dharma as practiced now.

back to Urgyen Dorje's first post, though. Recently I've engaged with some of the kinds of posts you are describing to point out ways in which I do respect the teachings and the life story of Jesus of Nazareth, even though I don't count myself among his followers (I grew up around Pentecostals and Mormons, if that context matters). I think Jesus is an interesting historical figure. Frankly, I think contemporary Buddhists, too heavily influenced by fin de siecle psychological theories, would do well to reflect on the prophetic tradition and its emphasis not on universal truths, but on justice for all and peace on the land.

I've also said elsewhere that if I wasn't a Buddhist, I'd be a Muslim (part of a Sufi order if possible). I say this in part because I oppose the anti-Islamic form much anti-immigrant sentiment takes, particularly among our friends in Europe. I also say this because I really do enjoy the company of Sufis. They're doing something right. Frankly, the Sufis I have met typically have much more joy and heart in their practice than some contemporary Buddhist practitioners I have encountered.

Now, I bring all this up because I want to offer some encouragement. There are members of the board, including those who are former and current staff, who generally agree with your approach--or at least don't disapprove of it.

The world needs more of this :cheers:

and less of this :techproblem:
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Jikan wrote:The world needs more of this :cheers:
I dunno if Jesus is my homeboy but if anybody says beer isn't Buddhist I'm in trouble.

It'd medicinal mkay?
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Jesse »

I don't hate Christians, but I do hate Christianity. Reason being, one of my absolute best friends is a hardcore christian, and to this day he believes in going to hell because im not christian.

These sorts of beliefs are just poison, and any religion that has that much poison probably shouldn't exist.. just my opinion obviously.
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by SeeLion »

Some issues I see:

1. Knowledge. If one hasn't spent maybe years trying to find out what a religion really is about, it's difficult to have a clear view.

Knowledge is deep and it's an easy trap to assume you have it.

In case one is barely scratching the surface, I don't know ... my advice is to just buy some ballet shoes and tip-toe very lightly around the matter. Just in case you step on a landmine.

And if you want to know, ask somebody with "inside knowledge". Which is not easy to find.

As a side note, I've found many unobvious similarities between Buddhism and Christianity, sometimes hiding behind apparent differences.

1.1. Generalization. Probably central to racism, religious intolerance, sexism, etc.

2. Judging, making comparisons, especially under the spell of lacking knowledge.

What can be an useful exercise that I practice sometimes: play the Devil's advocate (and be honest about it, don't try to just fake it).

It's difficult to stop judging, but this exercise helps me to change / widen perspective.


3. Take the assumed bad things, discard the good things.

4. About Jesus - problem is Jesus is self (was said above, not in these words). So - no relationship to the real dead or immortally living Jesus.


I don't hate Christians, but I do hate Christianity. Reason being, one of my absolute best friends is a hardcore christian, and to this day he believes in going to hell because im not christian.

These sorts of beliefs are just poison
I also have some friends who believe I am going to hell because I don't share their belief. But I find that very cute, and I'm overwhelmed by their love and caring.

It can be annoying, but it's not like it's going to kill me. And if it is, maybe I'll re-incarnate as a true believer :P

Btw, I don't eat the poison part. Many times after I have finished eating, you can find few less tasty leftover morsels on my plate.
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by KathyLauren »

Jesse wrote:he believes in going to hell because im not christian.

These sorts of beliefs are just poison
It was this belief that set me on the road to free thinking on religious matters. I couldn't have been more than seven years old when my school teacher taught us that non-Christians would go to hell. (In the U.K.: no separation of church and state.) I just knew in the depth of my heart that that could not possibly be true, though I could not have articulated at the time why not.

I distinguish between the religion taught by Jesus and the religion taught by the church. I have no difficulty in accepting what Jesus taught. Who can argue with "Love thy neighbour" or "Turn the other cheek"? There is a lot to be admired in those teachings and a lot to respect in Christians who take them to heart. I do have difficulty in the teachings created by the church about Jesus, and in the conduct of some allegedly Christian groups.

My teacher, too, taught me that disrespecting other religions was breaking a samaya. I admit to failing in this regard when I occasionally use some Christian-based profanities. It is bad karma.

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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by undefineable »

Jesse wrote:to this day he believes in going to hell because im not christian.
What about Buddhist hells?
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Jesse »

undefineable wrote:
Jesse wrote:to this day he believes in going to hell because im not christian.
What about Buddhist hells?
Well buddhist hells aren't a place your condemned to for eternity for some silly reason. It's just the result of your actions.
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Re: Dropping Jesus

Post by Urgyen Dorje »

And then there's Julian or Norwich who created her own theology in which the deity is the Mother who has no wrath or vengeance, and that all such emotion comes entirely from man's sin.

And then there's the Quakers who sit in the light, and don't say anything unless moved.

And then there's the people from my neck of the woods who pick up snakes.

Bottom Line: Christianity is about as monolithic as Buddhism is.
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