SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

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Minobu
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SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby Minobu » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:25 pm

MOD NOTE: Split this topic off another thread because I thought it was an interesting topic in its own right. -QQ

Without a doubt the Gakki does do good work. And Ikeda did bring this Dharma worldwide.

I think the problem lies in Shoshu and their tampering with the Dharma. if the roots have disease it will flower in the leaves.

Now what brought me back to this Dharma practice was the realization that this Dharma is complete. And I would much rather have characters with in depth meaning to jerk my own inner qualities than statues, and artwork.

When I recently found out I was chanting to these two gain benefit and punish people lines right up there with the Four Bodisatnvas and Two Buddhas along side the ODAIMOKU I was horrified.

Apparently it was introduced by a 16th century ShoShu High Priest.

It is also n the Gohonzon supposedly authentic and given to Nichimoku Shonin, which has a reversal of the Two Sanskrit Fudo and Aizen characters.
Which is weird in and of itself. Robin pointed out that it is not inscribed in the same area as the ShoShu Gakki Gohonzons.


This is what I meant earlier here when I said I did not want to become an instrument of punishment.
It might be a fact that to harm a Mahayanist brings ill Karma but i do not want to develop that quality so effectually by chanting ODAIMOKU to it.


My own advice for the Gakki.
You have proven to be a force in this Samsaric reality . You also know when to make the hard choices as you quit ties with the priesthood. though not entirely free from propaganda and bashing , at least you stood up .

What they need to do is ask to link up with Nichiren Shu , yield to Nichiren Shu Dharma totally and both entities learn to act independently as a layperson's organization, and a priesthood with a legacy. Nichiren Shonin was first a priest and defended the priesthood and saw their place.

As long as Ikeda is alive it won't happen. It appears to me in my opinion he wants a legacy . Which is weird for someone trying to become an unattached Buddha .
We are living in an Orwellian 1984 Nightmare

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Minobu
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Re: SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby Minobu » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:16 pm

I will say that his writings are extremely helpful , and were and are helpful for me. Most of it anyway.
The man is brilliant and credit where credit is due. I could never have done what this man has done and there is a greatness to be bestowed upon him.

If only he could see the error in the ShoShu tampering with Nichiren Shonin's Dharma.

If he came out with that and fixed it ...wow...now there is a legacy.

I had to put this in writing .
dave
We are living in an Orwellian 1984 Nightmare

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Queequeg
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Re: SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby Queequeg » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:19 pm

Minobu wrote:I will say that his writings are extremely helpful , and were and are helpful for me. Most of it anyway.
The man is brilliant and credit where credit is due. I could never have done what this man has done and there is a greatness to be bestowed upon him.

If only he could see the error in the ShoShu tampering with Nichiren Shonin's Dharma.

If he came out with that and fixed it ...wow...now there is a legacy.

I had to put this in writing .
dave


Theoretically, I think there ought to be some formal reconciliation with the wider Nichiren community, but I think there is too much history of bad blood, not just with Soka Gakkai, but between the various sects. At the levels of academic scholarship there is exchange among the Nichiren groups (the exception, incidentally, being Shoshu, from what I hear).

Its kind of nice that in the West, the independents have at least in theory, overcome that old world stuff. We should be building a stupa for Don Ross, too.

The problem for Soka Gakkai, at least internationally, they scorched the earth in the war with Shoshu and demonized any and all priests. Any reconciliation with any of the temples would have to undo all of that first.

Shame.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

narhwal90
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Re: SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby narhwal90 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:47 am

Probably way too much has been done and said for a reconciliation between Nichiren Shoshu and SGI, at least for a full generation or so of leadership change. There is probably a lot of suspicion and isolation within the SGi with the other sects- in Japan perhaps there are more specific antecedents, I recall back in the old NSA days the other sects were all considered "heretical" to some degree, at least in some quarters- quite a few people I knew back then used terminology like that. Nowadays the subject of the priesthood doesn't come up in conversation, in meetings or informally- mostly I gather because they are not viewed as relevant in a similar way that other sects or even other religions are not relevant or at least of immediate relevance. OTOH talk to an old-timer who remembers the fund-raising for the Sho Hondo and then its demolition and things will become a bit more pointed- both of those things were a really big deal in NSA at the time.

I was given my 1st gohonzon by a Nichiren Shoshu priest, several years before the split- but they were never relevant to my practice. NSA provided all the face-time, opportunities for fellowship & study, service etc. I went to a few "temple" events, a wedding, a new year's gongyo, a couple gohonzon conferrals- I don't recall a single priest showing up for an NSA function- there may have been a few though. I suppose the cultural and organizational divides were well underway and deepening at the time.

When the split happened the local NSA leadership pretty much collectively gave the priesthood the finger, writing them off as dissolute betrayers of Nichiren's legacy. Quite a few members (including some leaders) left for the "temple" (our term for the priesthood) after the split and on the flip side we heard stories of some priests abandoning the temple. I was told our SGI gohonzons were printed by priests who had left Nichiren Shoshu- we were all encouraged to turn in our NSA gohonzon for SGI replacements, which I did.

Personally I'm more interested in going to some Nichiren Shu temples since I've never seen one, to see how they do their thing. Naturally, I was out on the west coast a couple years ago and never even thought of trying to do so lol... I'd be happy to resume mutually respectful contact with Nichiren Shoshu as well. I never even knew independents were out there, I would love to go hang out with them a bit too.

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Minobu
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Re: SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby Minobu » Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Minobu wrote:I will say that his writings are extremely helpful , and were and are helpful for me. Most of it anyway.
The man is brilliant and credit where credit is due. I could never have done what this man has done and there is a greatness to be bestowed upon him.

If only he could see the error in the ShoShu tampering with Nichiren Shonin's Dharma.

If he came out with that and fixed it ...wow...now there is a legacy.

I had to put this in writing .
dave


Theoretically, I think there ought to be some formal reconciliation with the wider Nichiren community, but I think there is too much history of bad blood, not just with Soka Gakkai, but between the various sects. At the levels of academic scholarship there is exchange among the Nichiren groups (the exception, incidentally, being Shoshu, from what I hear).

Its kind of nice that in the West, the independents have at least in theory, overcome that old world stuff. We should be building a stupa for Don Ross, too.

The problem for Soka Gakkai, at least internationally, they scorched the earth in the war with Shoshu and demonized any and all priests. Any reconciliation with any of the temples would have to undo all of that first.

Shame.

Well I see something far off in the future. Like I said as long as ikeda the architect is alive I agree whole heartedly with you.

But never give up on the Dharma Kaya and all the Buddhas and Bodhisatvas . They might appear to work at the speed of the Earth plates ,yet we feel the rumblings and sometimes see the full effect .

It is inevitable that eventually a generation will rise up and do something.

I guess Don Ross is dead.He really did something great, if it wasn't for him I don't think I would be chanting right now.

There are a plethora of Don Ross's in the universe.

You , believe it or not f,it into the same category for me. All the weirdness we have had together you always were spot on. When some in a forum wanted me banned you said no. The way and reason you did it was pure Buddhist and again "you done good for me".

Also it's not that i run hot or cold towards President Ikeda , he is like a Salvation Army officer for Buddhists. I recall when I first met Mr. Williams in toronto. Everyone was anxious and there was a fever pitch for the arrival.

Then He appeared in this Velvet suit and I thought i was in the presence of some sort of Elmer Gantry evangelical .

Wow I thought , "An Americanized Preacher , preaching Buddhism." Me old man felt the same way. But we did what one does and brushes feelings under the rug and shout A A O !!! three times and sang.

Do your gongyo early in the morning
Daimoku late at night
Gonna follow President Ikeda
Make the planet peaceful and bright
Shakkabukku is the way to kosen rofu
Keep chanting keep chanting
we just got twenty years to go.

the last line was in play when Trancedental Meditation who also promising enlightenment in twenty years . They were the NO.1 alternative for all the hippies and people of that bent in the early 70's.

Enlightenment was my main concern in those days as it is now. I talked about it all the time.
When 20 years had passed and people from Japan who had been chanting since the 40's came and went i actually asked about where is the promised enlightenment.
"This one has been at it for 30 years , those people almost forty, what? did they miss one morning gongyo?"
yup always trolling...lol...

I was shunned for it, and it was like i could not see the enlightenment. now it is never even talked about.
Nor is the promise of Buddhahood a priority .
We are living in an Orwellian 1984 Nightmare

illarraza
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Re: SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby illarraza » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:30 pm

I think, in one sense, to the faithful, Buddhahood is not a priority because it is a given:

"How could a person who has undergone this ordination fail to become a Buddha of perfect enlightenment in his present existence? And if in this life you have attained the level of perfect enlightenment, then in your next life, how could you have any reason to regress to the stage of near-perfect enlightenment and other lower stages of practice? In view of our promise from the beginningless past and the principle that one will be constantly reborn with one’s teacher, if I, Nichiren, attain Buddhahood in my present lifetime, then how could it be possible for you to become separated from me and fall into the evil paths?

The prophecies of the Thus Come One recorded in the scripture, when viewed in the light of the Buddha’s true intentions, never contain the slightest falsehood with regard to either secular or religious matters. Now, in the Lotus Sutra it is stated, “After I have passed into extinction, [one] should accept and uphold this sutra. Such a person assuredly and without doubt will attain the Buddha way.”19 It also says, “This way one will quickly attain the unsurpassed Buddha way.”20 If these passages of prophecy should be meaningless, and if the prediction that we will attain Buddhahood should be a lie, then the tongues of all the Buddhas will break apart, the tower of Many Treasures Buddha will crumble and fall, the place upon which the two Buddhas [Shakyamuni and Many Treasures] are seated side by side will be changed into a bed of burning iron in the hell of incessant suffering, and the three lands of Transition, Actual Reward, and Eternally Tranquil Light will be transformed into the three evil paths of hell, hungry spirits, and animals. But how could such a thing ever be possible?

Ah, how assuring! How assuring! If we continue to think in this way, then, though we may be exiles, we have cause to be joyful in both body and mind!

So day and night I ponder the important doctrines, and hour by hour, moment by moment, I savor the principle that allows us to attain Buddhahood. And because I pass the time in this fashion, though months and years go by, it does not seem long at all, and the hours that have elapsed do not seem like many. It is similar to the case described in the sutra when the two Buddhas Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, seated side by side in the treasure tower, nodded in approval over the wonderful principles of the Lotus p.313Sutra, and although fifty small kalpas had elapsed, because of the supernatural powers of the Buddha, it seemed to the great crowd assembled there like no more than half a day.21

Among all the persons since the beginning of our present kalpa who have incurred the wrath of their parents or their rulers and have been exiled to distant islands, there can be none who overflow with joy as we do. Therefore, wherever we dwell and practice the single vehicle, that place will be the Capital of Eternally Tranquil Light. And, without having to take a step, those who are our disciples and lay supporters can view Eagle Peak in India and day and night will go to and from the Land of Eternally Tranquil Light that has existed for all time. What a truly inexpressible joy it is!"

In another sense, Nichiren reflected [as did you] that attaining Buddhahood was the one thing he always kept in mind.

M

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Minobu
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Re: SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby Minobu » Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:13 am

:twothumbsup: :thanks: :twothumbsup:
We are living in an Orwellian 1984 Nightmare

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Minobu
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Re: SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby Minobu » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:57 pm

illarraza wrote:I think, in one sense, to the faithful, Buddhahood is not a priority because it is a given:

"How could a person who has undergone this ordination fail to become a Buddha of perfect enlightenment in his present existence? And if in this life you have attained the level of perfect enlightenment, then in your next life, how could you have any reason to regress to the stage of near-perfect enlightenment and other lower stages of practice? In view of our promise from the beginningless past and the principle that one will be constantly reborn with one’s teacher, if I, Nichiren, attain Buddhahood in my present lifetime, then how could it be possible for you to become separated from me and fall into the evil paths?

The prophecies of the Thus Come One recorded in the scripture, when viewed in the light of the Buddha’s true intentions, never contain the slightest falsehood with regard to either secular or religious matters. Now, in the Lotus Sutra it is stated, “After I have passed into extinction, [one] should accept and uphold this sutra. Such a person assuredly and without doubt will attain the Buddha way.”19 It also says, “This way one will quickly attain the unsurpassed Buddha way.”20 If these passages of prophecy should be meaningless, and if the prediction that we will attain Buddhahood should be a lie, then the tongues of all the Buddhas will break apart, the tower of Many Treasures Buddha will crumble and fall, the place upon which the two Buddhas [Shakyamuni and Many Treasures] are seated side by side will be changed into a bed of burning iron in the hell of incessant suffering, and the three lands of Transition, Actual Reward, and Eternally Tranquil Light will be transformed into the three evil paths of hell, hungry spirits, and animals. But how could such a thing ever be possible?

Ah, how assuring! How assuring! If we continue to think in this way, then, though we may be exiles, we have cause to be joyful in both body and mind!

So day and night I ponder the important doctrines, and hour by hour, moment by moment, I savor the principle that allows us to attain Buddhahood. And because I pass the time in this fashion, though months and years go by, it does not seem long at all, and the hours that have elapsed do not seem like many. It is similar to the case described in the sutra when the two Buddhas Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, seated side by side in the treasure tower, nodded in approval over the wonderful principles of the Lotus p.313Sutra, and although fifty small kalpas had elapsed, because of the supernatural powers of the Buddha, it seemed to the great crowd assembled there like no more than half a day.21

Among all the persons since the beginning of our present kalpa who have incurred the wrath of their parents or their rulers and have been exiled to distant islands, there can be none who overflow with joy as we do. Therefore, wherever we dwell and practice the single vehicle, that place will be the Capital of Eternally Tranquil Light. And, without having to take a step, those who are our disciples and lay supporters can view Eagle Peak in India and day and night will go to and from the Land of Eternally Tranquil Light that has existed for all time. What a truly inexpressible joy it is!"

In another sense, Nichiren reflected [as did you] that attaining Buddhahood was the one thing he always kept in mind.

M



Minobu wrote::twothumbsup: :thanks: :twothumbsup:


translation:
every now and then one comes across a gem at the perfect moment in time for that head space, for that I thank M for the post.
We are living in an Orwellian 1984 Nightmare

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Minobu
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Re: SGI reconciliation with any Temples?

Postby Minobu » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:58 pm

Minobu wrote:
illarraza wrote:I think, in one sense, to the faithful, Buddhahood is not a priority because it is a given:

"How could a person who has undergone this ordination fail to become a Buddha of perfect enlightenment in his present existence? And if in this life you have attained the level of perfect enlightenment, then in your next life, how could you have any reason to regress to the stage of near-perfect enlightenment and other lower stages of practice? In view of our promise from the beginningless past and the principle that one will be constantly reborn with one’s teacher, if I, Nichiren, attain Buddhahood in my present lifetime, then how could it be possible for you to become separated from me and fall into the evil paths?

The prophecies of the Thus Come One recorded in the scripture, when viewed in the light of the Buddha’s true intentions, never contain the slightest falsehood with regard to either secular or religious matters. Now, in the Lotus Sutra it is stated, “After I have passed into extinction, [one] should accept and uphold this sutra. Such a person assuredly and without doubt will attain the Buddha way.”19 It also says, “This way one will quickly attain the unsurpassed Buddha way.”20 If these passages of prophecy should be meaningless, and if the prediction that we will attain Buddhahood should be a lie, then the tongues of all the Buddhas will break apart, the tower of Many Treasures Buddha will crumble and fall, the place upon which the two Buddhas [Shakyamuni and Many Treasures] are seated side by side will be changed into a bed of burning iron in the hell of incessant suffering, and the three lands of Transition, Actual Reward, and Eternally Tranquil Light will be transformed into the three evil paths of hell, hungry spirits, and animals. But how could such a thing ever be possible?

Ah, how assuring! How assuring! If we continue to think in this way, then, though we may be exiles, we have cause to be joyful in both body and mind!

So day and night I ponder the important doctrines, and hour by hour, moment by moment, I savor the principle that allows us to attain Buddhahood. And because I pass the time in this fashion, though months and years go by, it does not seem long at all, and the hours that have elapsed do not seem like many. It is similar to the case described in the sutra when the two Buddhas Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, seated side by side in the treasure tower, nodded in approval over the wonderful principles of the Lotus p.313Sutra, and although fifty small kalpas had elapsed, because of the supernatural powers of the Buddha, it seemed to the great crowd assembled there like no more than half a day.21

Among all the persons since the beginning of our present kalpa who have incurred the wrath of their parents or their rulers and have been exiled to distant islands, there can be none who overflow with joy as we do. Therefore, wherever we dwell and practice the single vehicle, that place will be the Capital of Eternally Tranquil Light. And, without having to take a step, those who are our disciples and lay supporters can view Eagle Peak in India and day and night will go to and from the Land of Eternally Tranquil Light that has existed for all time. What a truly inexpressible joy it is!"

In another sense, Nichiren reflected [as did you] that attaining Buddhahood was the one thing he always kept in mind.

M



Minobu wrote: :twothumbsup: : :thanks: :twothumbsup:


translation:
every now and then one comes across a gem at the perfect moment in time for that head space, for that I thank M for the post.
We are living in an Orwellian 1984 Nightmare


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