Going Deeper

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Going Deeper

Postby MalaBeads » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:53 pm

These two statements from Suzuki-Roshi have been pestering me for awhile. Although Suzuki-Roshi was a "zen" teacher, I don't find either of these comments to be particulately "zen" but to be more applicable to any practitioner of any tradition. Or any non-tradition.

An early student of Suzuki-roshi's, David Haselwood, recounted this statement, made by SR to him in dokusan.  This comment can be found in the archives at cuke.com under interviews, David Haselwood.

Suzuki-Roshi told him: "You try and you try and you fail, and then you go deeper."

Another time, during a seven day period of sitting, Suzuki-Roshi is reported to have told his students: "the problems you have now (pause)...... you will have for the rest of your life."

Zen teacher Ed Brown is fond of repeating this one in his talks.

So, I'm sharing both of these here because both statements are incredibly true in my life and my practice. The spiral of success and failure is exactly what samsara is. And then we are reminded that nothing will get rid of these "problems", in case we are tempted to grasp any particular success. Or any particular failure. Always going deeper and deeper as we approach the core of our neurosis.

At least this is how I see it.

I am one of those people who happens to think that rebirth is an actual phenomenon. I know many people, many people who consider themselves Buddhist, do not. That's okay. I am perfectly fine with the idea that rebirth just might be one of those conceptual overlays that human beings use to help make sense of their experience. I'm okay with that because I do not actually know. For now, for me, I am considering that rebirth is an actual phenomenon.

It helps me understand the enormity of the neurosis I have carried from life to life. And why one lifetime, or many lifetimes, may not be enough to dissolve all these obstacles. Or to resolve and purify all this karma. Or to be of assistance to others before I mess up again. And create more problems. And so on and so on.

These two quotes remind me that maybe nothing is final. That samsara is endless. That grasping is useless. And that in any given life, this life for instance, there may be more to do, or not do, than I can even imagine.

For some strange reason, these two quotes, although seemingly of a negative, pessimistic flavor, give me hope. Because they remind me not to get too arrogant. Not to judge others. To look at my own endless neurosis. And to constantly be okay with going deeper.

And I am okay with it. Even if at times, I am discouraged. Or angry. Or tired. Even if at times it seems as if I have given up. If i can't (or won't) do anymore. Because I understand that any (or all) effort is taking me towards the core of my neurosis. And all that seems like very good news to me. Because I have a learned that all problems are workable. And everything, no matter what it is, can be dissolved.

Any and all problems.

The real problem is seeing what your real problems are.

And then going deeper.
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Re: Going Deeper

Postby lobster » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:46 am

You mean Nasa were wrong . . . ?
Failure is an option . . . ?

We all have failings, flaws and futility . . . well maybe not the mythical 'lotus born'
I think there is a zen saying
if sitting - sit
if standing - stand
if wobbling - wobble

:oops:

well OK I may have the last line messed up . . .
For me the important lesson is move on, don't dwell . . .

It is a bit like diets
rather than restricting stuffing your gob
eat more good stuff
and chew more
same tendencies, different impetus, new results . . .
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Re: Going Deeper

Postby MalaBeads » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:53 am

Lobster,

If I remember correctly, nasa has had some spectacular failures.

And who knows about that last line? I heard it as "above all, don't wobble." but then I heard that Sasaki Roshi said he wobbles a lot in his old age, so different strokes for different folks.

And yeah, its good advice to eat better food. I have a cookbook called "Eat More, Weigh Less" it's about reversing heart disease but the recipes are sooooo complicated.

Finally, movement is good. Yes, movement is good.

Ciao.
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Re: Going Deeper

Postby lobster » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:03 am

Failure is not an option

was made up for the Apollo 13 movie . . .

The original is indeed 'don't wobble'

I find salad and vegetables eaten at the start of a meal are easy to include . . .

good points about movement

in many ways our ability to be still in attention
but have movement in our certainty will keep us flexible

must wobble a bit shortly :smile:
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Re: Going Deeper

Postby lisehull » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:38 pm

Failure is not an option was said by Gene Cranz when NASA was trying to rescue Apollo 13. It was not made up for the movie.
:offtopic:
:namaste:
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Re: Going Deeper

Postby lobster » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:55 am

Not to judge others


As you are probably aware, we only really judge ourselves as reflected through others.
So for example our annoyance or triviality or other negativity is exposed in our interaction.
Far better to find worthwhile qualities in others including the most clown like, thus transforming the whole . . .

There may be hope for me yet . . . :woohoo:
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Re: Going Deeper

Postby MalaBeads » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:21 pm

lobster wrote:
Not to judge others


As you are probably aware, we only really judge ourselves as reflected through others.


Yes, my friend, I am very aware of this, sometimes painfully so, that whenever I judge others it is only a reflection of what I actually think and feel about myself.

Here's a another one I've been seeing lately. Sometimes, when I read anothers words about a given topic, the psychological root of their clinging to that particular view leaps out at me.

But that's another topic, another thread.
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Re: Going Deeper

Postby lobster » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:24 am

MalaBeads wrote:Here's a another one I've been seeing lately. Sometimes, when I read anothers words about a given topic, the psychological root of their clinging to that particular view leaps out at me.

But that's another topic, another thread.

I hope you start that thread :thumbsup:

Part of or transparency is in knowing others, through our own self knowledge.
In knowing ourselves, we may know stuff about others that they are unaware of and vice versa. :yinyang:

I knew that Sangha thingee had a porpoise . . . :smile:
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