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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
It might have to do with the fact that he did a seven year retreat on thogal.


That's exactly why I believe bardo of dharmata does not occur for everyone.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:02 pm 
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ConradTree wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
It might have to do with the fact that he did a seven year retreat on thogal.


That's exactly why I believe bardo of dharmata does not occur for everyone.


Well, you are wrong.

M

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:57 am 
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Atleast we agree on this clear light stuff.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:00 am 
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By the way, why did you change your th*g*l code word from lhun grub to clarity?

Most people won't get it.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:14 am 
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ConradTree wrote:
By the way, why did you change your th*g*l code word from lhun grub to clarity?

Most people won't get it.



because the nature, natural perfection, is clarity.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:18 pm 
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Can you explain why everything ultimately relates to sleep yoga?

1. During sleep yoga, tertons travel to pure lands and receive terma
2. The progress of all daytime practice, whether mantras or even lhun grub practices, is assessed by dreams.
3. The practice of the night is a standard feature in Dzogchen practice manuals.

So is sleep yoga the highest and most direct practice?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:29 am 
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That is a psychedelic experience and can be likened to the Kundalini experience (my understanding is that the kundalini is nothing more than a psychedelic experience anyway - it does not occur in the normal mode of experiencing phenomena). But who am I to espouse such an opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:13 am 
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baseless wrote:
That is a psychedelic experience and can be likened to the Kundalini experience (my understanding is that the kundalini is nothing more than a psychedelic experience anyway - it does not occur in the normal mode of experiencing phenomena). But who am I to espouse such an opinion.


I certainly disagree with all of the above including "normal mode of experiencing phenomena", not just your implication of psychedelic drugs acting as agent provocateur.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:15 pm 
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My understanding of psychedelics from a pharmaceutical perspective, specifically LSD, is that they trigger a release of neurotransmitter chemicals in the brain causing your senses to be hyperactive. That is, you are trying to see more than is really there and over thinking what it is you think you are seeing (or hearing or tasting or what have you). That is why you might see huge, rotating mandalas on a perfectly blank wall: Your mind is not accepting 'blankness' and is instead trying to force some kind of pattern onto the wall. When your mind interprets this vision on the wall it sees it as coming from somewhere else, which may make it seem metaphysical or profound. From a biological standpoint it's really no more profound or metaphysical than a fireworks display, though the experience itself can make a person more open minded about the world around him.

I had an LSD experience when I was in my late teens where, through a series of misinterpreted external stimulus, I came to the conclusion that the Apocalypse had started. THE Christian Apocalypse from the Bible. At the time I considered myself an Existentialist and eschewed Christianity, but I was raised going to Lutheran Church and this imagery and ideation are firmly imbedded in my subconscious whether I want it there or not. Despite this very urgent sense that the world was about to end and Jesus was about to show up I managed to keep my wits about me: "Um... is this really happening? No, I'm in my friend's attic and I'm high on acid. The odds of the Christian Apocalypse happening right now are pretty low especially considering how improbable that scenario is in the first place." Maintaining this perspective kept me from getting carried away in the moment, and the feeling of impending rapture went away. Rather than profound or enlightening, it was simply "pretty weird".

Recently, and totally on a lark, my wife and I made some psychedelic mushroom tea, and I remember thinking "Hey! Maybe I'll see a 'Buddha!' Neat-o!" Of course that didn't happen despite the iconography we have all over the place, instead I felt like the couch I was sitting on was going way too fast, and I remember missing the way my mind was earlier in the evening. It seemed much more organized and I felt like I was being tempted with a lot of false ideas and emotions. I managed to quiet the chatter and the racing by repeating the Amitabha mantra (more powerful than drugs!) until things calmed down. It was pretty unpleasant and I'm probably too old for that nonsense anyway, but like anything else - now I know!

Also recently I had this thing happen that I can't quite define because I don't have a reference for it. I was reading The Four Noble Truths by VA Sumedho, and there's this passage where he talks about a hike in the Himalayas that described dukkha so perfectly it was like I had never understood anything else quite so well ever before. I remember feeling a rush inside that made me gasp and I sat up, and when I did it was like my head disappeared and I envisioned this big orange flame with a silhouette of a Buddha in the middle. It went away and the whole room seemed to be in very sharp focus and I had this sense of Peace unlike anything I had ever felt. It was like I had been standing my whole life and finally sat down. Mostly I felt relief. It was totally amazing, though I know not to attach to it - the value for me is knowing that it's possible!

Basically these drug trips are artificial and the Dharma is real and that's what I got from it all :smile:

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:44 am 
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odysseus wrote:

Good point, but in this case the experience was reality. It was not conventional/illusory reality created by my being. You know, reality has a kind of innate certainty, existence and vibe that one knows it´s reality. Cannot be mistaken. Just connect with the air in the atmosphere to know it!


But this is exactly the kind of reasoning that Christians use to establish the truth of what God is telling them. "I am very certain", they say, "therefore it must be true." The Bible is also claimed have this kind of innate undeniability, and it is used as a proof that God wrote it.

Half of wisdom is realizing that the moment of greatest certainty is often the moment of greatest error.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:50 pm 
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I agree that a feeling of certainty must not be mistaken for certainty. If somebody applies criteria like that to meditation experiences they're on a very dangerous road.

This however

catmoon wrote:
But this is exactly the kind of reasoning that Christians use to establish the truth of what God is telling them. "I am very certain", they say, "therefore it must be true."


is an unfair over-generalization. If you read the writings of St. Terese of Ávila for instance you will see that the criteria she applies are much more elaborate than that.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:38 pm 
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ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
I agree that a feeling of certainty must not be mistaken for certainty. If somebody applies criteria like that to meditation experiences they're on a very dangerous road.

This however

catmoon wrote:
But this is exactly the kind of reasoning that Christians use to establish the truth of what God is telling them. "I am very certain", they say, "therefore it must be true."


is an unfair over-generalization. If you read the writings of St. Terese of Ávila for instance you will see that the criteria she applies are much more elaborate than that.


Yeah its a bit too wide in scope. All the same, I have heard such talk in the trenches many times, back in my fundie days. It's a pretty common idea, at least in the churches I hung around.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:00 pm 
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It´s getting deep and beautiful and all, but we´re now off-topic.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:15 pm 
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I'm interested in what your lama thought of your experience.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:58 am 
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Nick r, "I then remembered the first time we met and I got in a turbulent state of mind. Suddenly , my heart exploded with love and I got dizzy. Then I lost contact with the physical room and this warm, bright, brilliant clear/white light appeared in my mind and took over everything"
You had taken psychedelics well before the meeting with the psychologist so sounds authentic to me, 'my heart exploded with love' certainly a glimpse of reality that is a fortaste to awakening.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:56 am 
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greentara wrote:
Nick r, "I then remembered the first time we met and I got in a turbulent state of mind. Suddenly , my heart exploded with love and I got dizzy. Then I lost contact with the physical room and this warm, bright, brilliant clear/white light appeared in my mind and took over everything"
You had taken psychedelics well before the meeting with the psychologist so sounds authentic to me, 'my heart exploded with love' certainly a glimpse of reality that is a fortaste to awakening.


Yes, that´s what I tried to explain - It had been several weeks since I had digested the psychedelic. My clear light reaction must have been due to various causes that came into a result. Something good came out of it, anyway: The experience surely made me more curious about the Buddhism.

I haven´t been able to talk to my lama about it, he´s not my direct Tantric teacher and he´s busy giving organized courses. I´ll report back when/if I get his opinion.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:40 pm 
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It does not matter that you meet the clear light or not meet.Can it see by meditation or not,wheter you are still the same person who was.Because are you two weeks holiday in Italy,are you not Italian man.And do not let yourself lead by the idiot Buddha subconsciousness.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:28 pm 
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hop.pala wrote:
It does not matter that you meet the clear light or not meet.


Sure it´s not that a big deal, but it was a profound and thrilling experience. No, it wasn´t real enlightenment, but it was enlightening.

hop.pala wrote:
Can it see by meditation or not,wheter you are still the same person who was.Because are you two weeks holiday in Italy,are you not Italian man.


They said the clear light can be met in meditation, yes.
I´m still the same person, but my world has changed drastically since then. No, I don´t claim to be Italian man nor enlightened because of this experience. Haha. :-)

hop.pala wrote:
And do not let yourself lead by the idiot Buddha subconsciousness.


Funny term, what do you really mean? What kind of subconsciousness is that? Buddha doesn´t exist in your subconsciousness. Unless you mean the metaphor "Buddha seed" that we possess inside.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:36 pm 
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This can be an explanation.When exist the consciousness,tha Buddha can be only the subconsciousness.Because otherweise not perceive or?And from buddhism the forms of buddhas,the buddhas that can appear.And where from appear the Buddhas by the tibetan book of the living?From subconsciousness my friend.That is what will happen after death is now irrelevant.Buddha is subconsciousness.Silly subconsciousness,his password:not.Rejets the life,because those pictures are go not up to causal level,or higher.Buddha is an idiot stupid subconsciousness.Come down,born,and have wisdom?Dont have any wisdom!It is only an mindlevel.Mindlevel is only subconsciousness in this earth.This is reality.The astral mindlevel is direct over us.When we dreaming ,we say this is subconsciousness.Buddha subconsciousness too.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:52 pm 
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hop.pala wrote:
This can be an explanation.When exist the consciousness,tha Buddha can be only the subconsciousness.Because otherweise not perceive or?And from buddhism the forms of buddhas,the buddhas that can appear.And where from appear the Buddhas by the tibetan book of the living?From subconsciousness my friend.That is what will happen after death is now irrelevant.Buddha is subconsciousness.


A lot of projections will appear from the subconscious at the moment of ego-death. Like when you are on a psychedelic trip. Some of these projections may appear as buddha-entities, of course. But the real Buddha doesn´t come from the subconscious. There´s mostly karmic and instinctual forces in the subconscious.

We are instructed to not be lead by our subconscious, but rather examine it and then train our defilements away.

Sorry, man, but I can´t agree that "Buddha is subconsciousness".

Please elaborate if you think I misunderstand you. :stirthepot:

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