A fine line between humility and submission

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: A fine line between humility and submission

Postby Simon E. » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:30 am

duckfiasco wrote:I believe lobster was referring to submission that is more of a power play between superior other and inferior self, often by hoisting this bad self onto a good/saved self pedestal, or at least gaining some advantage for a demanding small self. This is seen for example in much of Christianity. The bad self is made into a good self through the grace of other, often with conditions attached.

Another kind is submission that may resemble this "inferior evil self" initially, but instead of inferiority being improved into superiority, it's taken to be insight into the unsuitability of this egotistic self for liberation. Therefore, it's not something worthy of such cherishing, but something to be abandoned.
This is my understanding of Pure Land for instance, where we give up our schemings to become a good and wise person, since any such polished self we could make would be provisional, and short of incredible insight, have some calculating egotism waiting to mess it all up.
So instead, we submit to Other-Power, or whatever you might call it

Sorry if that's all abstract and wrong :toilet:


Is that what 'lobster' meant...so why didn't he say so ?

Its still nothing to do with submission in the sense that it is used in the Vajrayana however.
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Re: A fine line between humility and submission

Postby odysseus » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:52 am

Simon E. wrote:Its still nothing to do with submission in the sense that it is used in the Vajrayana however.


English is not my first language, or I would find a better word than "submission". There´s no submission in Tantra neither, it´s called supplication (to teacher).
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Re: A fine line between humility and submission

Postby Simon E. » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:03 am

That might be your understanding Odysseus. Its not mine.

When I first received HYT the word 'submission' was used freely.
It was also made clear what was submitting to what..

Of course its a word that cuts completely across our delusions of autonomy, and so is politically incorrect.

Which seems to me to be a good reason to retain it.
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Re: A fine line between humility and submission

Postby odysseus » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:09 pm

Simon E. wrote:That might be your understanding Odysseus. Its not mine.

When I first received HYT the word 'submission' was used freely.
It was also made clear what was submitting to what..

Of course its a word that cuts completely across our delusions of autonomy, and so is politically incorrect.

Which seems to me to be a good reason to retain it.


Yeah, yeah, if you´re comfortable with the notion.
Though without autonomy, there is no enlightenment... :spy:
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Re: A fine line between humility and submission

Postby Gwenn Dana » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:48 pm

With an illusion of dependence there is neither ;)
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Re: A fine line between humility and submission

Postby Simon E. » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:35 pm

odysseus wrote:
Simon E. wrote:That might be your understanding Odysseus. Its not mine.

When I first received HYT the word 'submission' was used freely.
It was also made clear what was submitting to what..

Of course its a word that cuts completely across our delusions of autonomy, and so is politically incorrect.

Which seems to me to be a good reason to retain it.


Yeah, yeah, if you´re comfortable with the notion.
Though without autonomy, there is no enlightenment... :spy:


'Autonomy ' in Shunyata ? How does that work ?
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Re: A fine line between humility and submission

Postby duckfiasco » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:13 pm

Simon E. wrote:
duckfiasco wrote:I believe lobster was referring to submission that is more of a power play between superior other and inferior self, often by hoisting this bad self onto a good/saved self pedestal, or at least gaining some advantage for a demanding small self. This is seen for example in much of Christianity. The bad self is made into a good self through the grace of other, often with conditions attached.

Another kind is submission that may resemble this "inferior evil self" initially, but instead of inferiority being improved into superiority, it's taken to be insight into the unsuitability of this egotistic self for liberation. Therefore, it's not something worthy of such cherishing, but something to be abandoned.
This is my understanding of Pure Land for instance, where we give up our schemings to become a good and wise person, since any such polished self we could make would be provisional, and short of incredible insight, have some calculating egotism waiting to mess it all up.
So instead, we submit to Other-Power, or whatever you might call it

Sorry if that's all abstract and wrong :toilet:


Is that what 'lobster' meant...so why didn't he say so ?

Its still nothing to do with submission in the sense that it is used in the Vajrayana however.

That was my impression followed by my understanding of the matter. I won't speak for lobster.
I am also not a Vajrayana practitioner, but that much is probably obvious :group:
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Re: A fine line between humility and submission

Postby greentara » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:33 pm

The fine line between humility and submission is only an intellectual play. If you're still thinking have I gone too far, is this enough? The minds still playing its sly, clever games.
If you really submit to a teacher and teaching.....humility is there like a hand in a glove. Meanwhile the mind chatters on.
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