Poll on Faith in Sutras

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

I have faith that the sutras were taught by Buddha in some manner or form.

1 Yes
41
84%
2 No
8
16%
 
Total votes : 49

Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Will » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:59 am

Assuming one studies the sutras, how do you vote?
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Jikan » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:42 pm

I voted "yes" because Buddha isn't limited by time & space.
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Anders » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:47 pm

"in some manner or form."
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:42 pm

Jikan wrote:I voted "yes" because Buddha isn't limited by time & space.



Audiences, however, are...
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:22 pm

No. The Platform Sutra comes to mind here.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:52 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:No. The Platform Sutra comes to mind here.


No what?

Are you claiming that Śariputra transcends space and time?

The "Platform sutra" is not really called that. Not in the sense of the Indian usage of the term. The Chinese term "jing" has a broader usage.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:17 pm

Come on Malcolm, everybody knows Huineng penned the original Platform Sutra. Let's not kid ourselves. Then it developed over a 500 year period.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:20 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Come on Malcolm, everybody knows Huineng penned the original Platform Sutra. Let's not kid ourselves. Then it developed over a 500 year period.


The development of the platform sutra is not relevant to the discussion.

It is one thing to have Mahāyāna sutras that transcend time when taught in Akaniṣṭha by the Sambhogakāya to an emanated retinue -- quite another when they feature retinues like Śariputra (who passed a few months before the Buddha), and so on.
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby pensum » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:24 pm

I don't really understand the purpose of your question for, even within the traditional canon, many sutras themselves clearly state that they were not taught by the Buddha but by someone else, for example Āryasaṃvṛtiparamārthasatyanirdeśanāmamahāyānasūtra in which it is Manjushri who is specifically requested to give teachings. (It's a very worthwhile read by the way, and is available at http://read.84000.co/#!ReadingRoom/UT22084-060-008/12)
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Simon E. » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:29 pm

Anders wrote:"in some manner or form."



Well quite...
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:31 pm

What do you mean by "the sutras"?
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Will » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:44 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:What do you mean by "the sutras"?


Not me - the meaning will be determined by the reader.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:46 pm

pensum wrote:I don't really understand the purpose of your question for, even within the traditional canon, many sutras themselves clearly state that they were not taught by the Buddha but by someone else, for example Āryasaṃvṛtiparamārthasatyanirdeśanāmamahāyānasūtra in which it is Manjushri who is specifically requested to give teachings. (It's a very worthwhile read by the way, and is available at http://read.84000.co/#!ReadingRoom/UT22084-060-008/12)


This is an example of the Buddha teaching through granting permission.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Will » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:46 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Come on Malcolm, everybody knows Huineng penned the original Platform Sutra. Let's not kid ourselves. Then it developed over a 500 year period.


Huineng was almost illiterate, so his oral teachings were transcribed. :offtopic:
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:49 pm

Will wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:What do you mean by "the sutras"?
Not me - the meaning will be determined by the reader.

OK, what do you mean by "Buddha"?
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Will » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:49 pm

pensum wrote:I don't really understand the purpose of your question for, even within the traditional canon, many sutras themselves clearly state that they were not taught by the Buddha but by someone else, for example Āryasaṃvṛtiparamārthasatyanirdeśanāmamahāyānasūtra in which it is Manjushri who is specifically requested to give teachings. (It's a very worthwhile read by the way, and is available at http://read.84000.co/#!ReadingRoom/UT22084-060-008/12)


We also read that "through the blessing or empowerment of Buddha" such & such bodhisattva spoke. Thus "in some manner or form."
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Will » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:50 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Will wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:What do you mean by "the sutras"?
Not me - the meaning will be determined by the reader.

OK, what do you mean by "Buddha"?


Any self-reliance in you? Same answer as before.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby pensum » Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:59 pm

Will wrote:
pensum wrote:I don't really understand the purpose of your question for, even within the traditional canon, many sutras themselves clearly state that they were not taught by the Buddha but by someone else, for example Āryasaṃvṛtiparamārthasatyanirdeśanāmamahāyānasūtra in which it is Manjushri who is specifically requested to give teachings. (It's a very worthwhile read by the way, and is available at http://read.84000.co/#!ReadingRoom/UT22084-060-008/12)


We also read that "through the blessing or empowerment of Buddha" such & such bodhisattva spoke. Thus "in some manner or form."


But this is why i picked that specific sutra for in it the retinue specifically requests the Buddha to call Manjushri so that they might see him. Buddha does nothing more than call Manjushri to join them, and refuses to ask or command Manjushri to teach. And then they ask to hear him not recount the teachings of Shakyamuni but rather those of Ratnaketu:
Then the divine son Lord of Peace and Calm bowed to the Blessed One and said, with joined palms, “Blessed One, all of us would like to listen, so please ask Mañjuśrī Kumārabhuta to teach.”
The Blessed One replied, “Divine son, you yourself should make that request.”
So the divine son said, “Mañjuśrī, it would be wonderful if you could give us a Dharma teaching similar to what is taught in the buddha realm of the blessed one, the Thus-Gone Ratnaketu.”


And as pointed out above other sutras were composed or transcribed by others such as Huineng. So i, and it would appear others as well, find the wording of your poll question to be too vague.
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:09 pm

Will wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Come on Malcolm, everybody knows Huineng penned the original Platform Sutra. Let's not kid ourselves. Then it developed over a 500 year period.


Huineng was almost illiterate, so his oral teachings were transcribed. :offtopic:
Same ... different hairstyle!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Poll on Faith in Sutras

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:11 pm

pensum wrote:
Will wrote:
pensum wrote:I don't really understand the purpose of your question for, even within the traditional canon, many sutras themselves clearly state that they were not taught by the Buddha but by someone else, for example Āryasaṃvṛtiparamārthasatyanirdeśanāmamahāyānasūtra in which it is Manjushri who is specifically requested to give teachings. (It's a very worthwhile read by the way, and is available at http://read.84000.co/#!ReadingRoom/UT22084-060-008/12)


We also read that "through the blessing or empowerment of Buddha" such & such bodhisattva spoke. Thus "in some manner or form."


But this is why i picked that specific sutra for in it the retinue specifically requests the Buddha to call Manjushri so that they might see him. Buddha does nothing more than call Manjushri to join them, and refuses to ask or command Manjushri to teach. And then they ask to hear him not recount the teachings of Shakyamuni but rather those of Ratnaketu:
Then the divine son Lord of Peace and Calm bowed to the Blessed One and said, with joined palms, “Blessed One, all of us would like to listen, so please ask Mañjuśrī Kumārabhuta to teach.”
The Blessed One replied, “Divine son, you yourself should make that request.”
So the divine son said, “Mañjuśrī, it would be wonderful if you could give us a Dharma teaching similar to what is taught in the buddha realm of the blessed one, the Thus-Gone Ratnaketu.”


And as pointed out above other sutras were composed or transcribed by others such as Huineng. So i, and it would appear others as well, find the wording of your poll question to be too vague.


The teaching of one buddha is the teaching of all.

The platform sutra is misnamed.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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