CG Jung was indeed a Fascist. Discuss.

[Malcolm]

Like millions of Europeans, Jung saw in Hitler more than a mere demagogue, but a real promise and potential - a dynamic force for progress and unity.

What absolute nonsense. Millions of Europeans stood against Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc... from day one. Millions of Europeans saw him as a threat from the very beginning. You are just engaging in apologetics.

Well the truth is that millions of Europeans saw "...a real promise and potential - a dynamic force for progress and unity." And millions of other Europeans "...stood against Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc... from day one. Millions of Europeans saw him as a threat from the very beginning."

So you are both right.

[Grigoris]

Like millions of Europeans, Jung saw in Hitler more than a mere demagogue, but a real promise and potential - a dynamic force for progress and unity.

What absolute nonsense. Millions of Europeans stood against Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc... from day one. Millions of Europeans saw him as a threat from the very beginning. You are just engaging in apologetics.

Well the truth is that millions of Europeans saw "...a real promise and potential - a dynamic force for progress and unity." And millions of other Europeans "...stood against Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, etc... from day one. Millions of Europeans saw him as a threat from the very beginning."

So you are both right.

Yes, but I think those that actually supported him (ie were not bullied, harangued, threatened and beaten into supporting him) were an extremely small minority.

That is the situation here in Greece too with Golden Dawn: they were an insignificant neo-Nazi fringe group mainly supported by racist skins. Then when the sh*t hit the fan socially and economically... This was with a lot of help from the media and the crypto-Fascist establishment conservatives, former supporters of the military junta, who used them to do their dirty work. Consider that at the last local/council elections Golden Dawn skinheads were sent to electoral stations to harass voters. Of course the police did nothing, because polling statistics show that a huge section of the police force are Golden Dawn voters anyway.

That's how easy it is for democracy to fall to pieces.

[Malcolm]

Yes, but I think those that actually supported him (ie were not bullied, harangued, threatened and beaten into supporting him) were an extremely small minority.

Before Hitler came to power, Mussolini was the darling of the European right, who saw in Fascism a coherent response to Bolshevism. Hitler was able to cash in the European Right's enthusiasm for Fascism, without it, the Vichy Republic could not have happened, not to mention Franco, and so on.

[Grigoris]

Before Hitler came to power, Mussolini was the darling of the European right, who saw in Fascism a coherent response to Bolshevism. Hitler was able to cash in the European Right's enthusiasm for Fascism, without it, the Vichy Republic could not have happened, not to mention Franco, and so on.

Again, I do not disagree with you in general, but you still have not answered the question as to whether their appeal was genuine or contrived. Seeing how it worked here in Greece I would wager heavily on the contrived option. Movements like these need to be bankrolled and encouraged/advertised. Who does the bankrolling and encouragement? Mr average Joe Blow? I personally saw Golden Dawn go from an extreme and unknown fringe group to parliament in a matter of 4-5 years. Keep in mind that Golden Dawn has existed since 1985. Their direct ties with the (then) ruling New Democracy party and various high-flying business men are common knowledge here in Greece. Their role as auxiliary/irregular forces when the police needed to put down anti-austerity protests is also well documented.

These things are cultured, they do not sprout by themselves.

[Malcolm]

Before Hitler came to power, Mussolini was the darling of the European right, who saw in Fascism a coherent response to Bolshevism. Hitler was able to cash in the European Right's enthusiasm for Fascism, without it, the Vichy Republic could not have happened, not to mention Franco, and so on.

Again, I do not disagree with you in general, but you still have not answered the question as to whether their appeal was genuine or contrived.

It was pretty genuine, a lot of intellectuals like Louis Ferdinand Celine and so on were enthusiastic fellow travelers on the Right who were worried about the rise of communism.

Seeing how it worked here in Greece I would wager heavily on the contrived option. Movements like these need to be bankrolled and encouraged/advertised. Who does the bankrolling and encouragement? Mr average Joe Blow? I personally saw Golden Dawn go from an extreme and unknown fringe group to parliament in a matter of 4-5 years. Keep in mind that Golden Dawn has existed since 1985. Their direct ties with the (then) ruling New Democracy party and various high-flying business men are common knowledge here in Greece.

Don't confuse the twenty teens with the nineteen thirties.

[Grigoris]

It was pretty genuine, a lot of intellectuals like Louis Ferdinand Celine and so on were enthusiastic fellow travelers on the Right who were worried about the rise of communism.

I am talking about popular support, not "thumbs up" from right wing intellectuals and heads of industry.

Don't confuse the twenty teens with the nineteen thirties.

I am not confusing them in the slightest. I am pointing to similarities. Of course we do not have the backdrop of WWI and the general despair associated with that debacle (16 million dead, 21 million wounded) but what you fail to understand since you are a safe distance from this phenomenon, is that Fascism was never defeated in Europe.

Franco continued to rule until he died in 1975. Salazar ruled until 1968 and was then followed by Caetano until 1975. Greece had the junta. Etc...

Even in the "democratic" countries of Italy and Germany power was still concentrated in the hands of Fascist and Nazi supporters. France had a defacto military dictatorship under de Gaulle until 1969. Winston Churchill (another military officer) until 1955 and don't even get me started on the so-called "Communist" regimes.

[Malcolm]

It was pretty genuine, a lot of intellectuals like Louis Ferdinand Celine and so on were enthusiastic fellow travelers on the Right who were worried about the rise of communism.

I am talking about popular support, not "thumbs up" from right wing intellectuals and heads of industry.

Don't confuse the twenty teens with the nineteen thirties.

I am not confusing them in the slightest. I am pointing to similarities. Of course we do not have the backdrop of WWI and the general despair associated with that debacle (16 million dead, 21 million wounded) but what you fail to understand since you are a safe distance from this phenomenon, is that Fascism was never defeated in Europe.

Franco continued to rule until he died in 1975. Salazar ruled until 1968 and was then followed by Caetano until 1975. Greece had the junta. Etc...

Even in the "democratic" countries of Italy and Germany power was still concentrated in the hands of Fascist and Nazi supporters. France had a defacto military dictatorship under de Gaulle until 1969. Winston Churchill (another military officer) until 1955 and don't even get me started on the so-called "Communist" regimes.

Oh, I understand quite well that Fascism never died in Europe.

But my point is simply that like anything, both right and left had their "millions of supporters."

[Grigoris]

Oh, I understand quite well that Fascism never died in Europe.

But my point is simply that like anything, both right and left had their "millions of supporters."

Yes, but the term millions doesn't actually mean anything. Golden Dawn took 8% of the vote at the national level, they have millions of voters and supporters, the rest of the parties took 82% of the vote, they also have millions of voters and supporters.

At the basest level would should ask: "How many millions?"

At another level we should ask: "What are the demographics of these millions?"

SYRIZA (the left-wing coalition that "won" the elections) have "lots" of millions of supporters, but if I had 10,000 (for Greece that would suffice) well armed and equipped supporters, and the support of large sectors of the economic and social/political elites then...

That is what the Nazis and Fascists have always relied on: Support from the few people with economic and social/political power and the coercion of everybody else.

[kirtu]

.... what you fail to understand since you are a safe distance from this phenomenon, is that Fascism was never defeated in Europe.


Even in the "democratic" countries of ... and Germany power was still concentrated in the hands of Fascist and Nazi supporters.

No it wasn't. Power was in the hands of actual democrats. However some of their aides and most of the 2nd line of administration across the board came from some former Nazis and overwhelmingly children raised in the Nazi system and whose allegiance to democracy was worrying. Oh and there were some former Nazi generals in both Germanies. Democrats in Germany did worry about this irrespective of their party affiliation. The people to worry about though were in fact all (or almost all) deprived of access to power.

German engagement with history began well before the social revolution of '68 with that event unmistakably committing West Germany to the path of democracy.



Kirt

[Grigoris]

.... what you fail to understand since you are a safe distance from this phenomenon, is that Fascism was never defeated in Europe.


Even in the "democratic" countries of ... and Germany power was still concentrated in the hands of Fascist and Nazi supporters.

No it wasn't. Power was in the hands of actual democrats. However some of their aides and most of the 2nd line of administration across the board came from some former Nazis and overwhelmingly children raised in the Nazi system and whose allegiance to democracy was worrying. Oh and there were some former Nazi generals in both Germanies. Democrats in Germany did worry about this irrespective of their party affiliation. The people to worry about though were in fact all (or almost all) deprived of access to power.

German engagement with history began well before the social revolution of '68 with that event unmistakably committing West Germany to the path of democracy.



Kirt

Don't know which planet you are on Kirt but democracy is one thing that has been lacking in Europe for a really long time.

As for German democracy: have you seen the latest photos leaked by "Anonymous" showing a young(er) Angela Merkel hanging out with seig heiling skinheads?

And what of the industrial heads that got rich off Jewish slave labour and continued with business-as-usual after WWII? Nice democracy they got going there!

And the fact that all these supposed democrats were payrolled according to a plan set up by an American general doesn't register on your radar?

Dunno man, maybe you define democracy a little differently than me...

[kirtu]

.... what you fail to understand since you are a safe distance from this phenomenon, is that Fascism was never defeated in Europe.


Even in the "democratic" countries of ... and Germany power was still concentrated in the hands of Fascist and Nazi supporters.

No it wasn't. Power was in the hands of actual democrats. However some of their aides and most of the 2nd line of administration across the board came from some former Nazis and overwhelmingly children raised in the Nazi system and whose allegiance to democracy was worrying. Oh and there were some former Nazi generals in both Germanies. Democrats in Germany did worry about this irrespective of their party affiliation. The people to worry about though were in fact all (or almost all) deprived of access to power.

German engagement with history began well before the social revolution of '68 with that event unmistakably committing West Germany to the path of democracy.



Kirt

Don't know which planet you are on Kirt but democracy is one thing that has been lacking in Europe for a really long time.

As for German democracy: have you seen the latest photos leaked by "Anonymous" showing a young(er) Angela Merkel hanging out with seig heiling skinheads?

And what of the industrial heads that got rich off Jewish slave labour and continued with business-as-usual after WWII? Nice democracy they got going there!

And the fact that all these supposed democrats were payrolled according to a plan set up by an American general doesn't register on your radar?

Dunno man, maybe you define democracy a little differently than me...

You talk as if Germany from 1945-1955 was still happening. In fact after ~1950 the West German occupation zones were mostly committed to democracy. However it did take the outstanding personalities of Schumacher, Reuter, Adenauer, Brandt, Schmidt and innumerable other people at all levels of German society.

German industrialist generally did get off easy after WWII. And slave labor was not provided restitution in any meaningful way.

However Germany is now a true democracy (something I cannot say about a few other English language dominated societies).

Kirt

[frank123]

.... what you fail to understand since you are a safe distance from this phenomenon, is that Fascism was never defeated in Europe.


Even in the "democratic" countries of ... and Germany power was still concentrated in the hands of Fascist and Nazi supporters.

No it wasn't. Power was in the hands of actual democrats. However some of their aides and most of the 2nd line of administration across the board came from some former Nazis and overwhelmingly children raised in the Nazi system and whose allegiance to democracy was worrying. Oh and there were some former Nazi generals in both Germanies. Democrats in Germany did worry about this irrespective of their party affiliation. The people to worry about though were in fact all (or almost all) deprived of access to power.

German engagement with history began well before the social revolution of '68 with that event unmistakably committing West Germany to the path of democracy.



Kirt

Don't know which planet you are on Kirt but democracy is one thing that has been lacking in Europe for a really long time.

As for German democracy: have you seen the latest photos leaked by "Anonymous" showing a young(er) Angela Merkel hanging out with seig heiling skinheads?

And what of the industrial heads that got rich off Jewish slave labour and continued with business-as-usual after WWII? Nice democracy they got going there!

And the fact that all these supposed democrats were payrolled according to a plan set up by an American general doesn't register on your radar?

Dunno man, maybe you define democracy a little differently than me...

Wasn't it that Angela Merkel was family minister at the time?Its more probable that she was just visiting a youth center in a trouble suburb with high rates of racism. She was trying to bring them away from racism.Not support them.

[Dan74]

As for German democracy: have you seen the latest photos leaked by "Anonymous" showing a young(er) Angela Merkel hanging out with seig heiling skinheads?

Greg,

this is sadly an example of what I was talking about.

That you were prepared to believe that Merkel was a Nazi sympathiser based on these photos, is symptomatic of how most people these days operate, ruled more by passions and biases than common sense. Then of course those who don't take obvious sides in this madness are "fencesitters", "closet sympathisers of ..." etc

Merkel visited youth groups following a suspected racist murder. This is not a 'leaked' photograph, it's just deliberate misinformation that you fell for:

http://critiqueaujourdhui.blogsport.de/ ... mmelnazis/

Does this make me a Merkel supporter, closet Nazi sympathiser, a right-winger, etc? No, it makes me someone who is interested in fact, in understanding, rather than fitting reality into my preconceived worldview.

This compulsive mapping of the world onto one's existing framework, rather than coming with an open mind, open to discover what is there whether or not that conforms to one's biases is what saddens me the most. "You are either with us or against us." "It's a battle soldier - join us and defend the Good against the Evil or else..." etc Same old story on both sides of the madness.

As Dharma practitioners, I hope we all get some insight into our biases, our urges to join one group against the other, to be clear what we are doing. Yes, sometimes it is important to join the fight, but at all times, enter it with a clear mind, rather than one muddled by blind passions.

[Wayfarer]

What is the evidence that Jung was 'fascist'?

There was nothing to that effect in the blog posting that was linked in the original post.

I see Jung as being representative of the gnostic or hermetic tradition. I did notice whilst at university, he is never mentioned at all in psychology; the only discussion of him was in Comparative Religion.

I am not a Jung enthusiast, but I think he represents ideas that are not otherwise anywhere to be found in current Western thinking. So I can't quite see the point of the idea.

[steveb1]

As a Jungian, I think it's just a dead issue. Like millions of Europeans, Jung saw in Hitler more than a mere demagogue, but a real promise and potential - a dynamic force for progress and unity. Later, when Jung found out just how awful the whole thing was turning out to be, he repudiated Nazism. He also wrote a scathing condemnation of Nazi Germany as being a corruption of the Teutonic Siegfried myth, and he offered to help the Jewish Freud to emigrate from Europe (which Freud refused). Some people just hate success and greatness in others, and like to cast stones and sling mud in abortive attempts to sully their betters - and that is, imho, what lies behind most Jung-bashing (while I do, of course, recognize Jung's many egregious human failings).

This fits with my generally positive impression of Jung, but I don't know much about him. Can you provide sources for his repudiation/condemnation of Nazism?


Kim

Kim, I do have some references but I'd have to dig them out of the mess of books so here's a brief one:

= = = = =

Response to Nazism

Jung's interest in European mythology and folk psychology has led to accusations of Nazi sympathies, since they shared the same interest.

[72][73][74] He became, however, aware of the negative impact of these similarities:

Jung clearly identifies himself with the spirit of German Volkstumsbewegung throughout this period and well into the 1920s and 1930s, until the horrors of Nazism finally compelled him to reframe these neopagan metaphors in a negative light in his 1936 essay on Wotan.[75]

There are writings showing that Jung's sympathies were against, rather than for, Nazism.[c] In his 1936 essay "Wotan", Jung described the influence of Hitler on Germany as "one man who is obviously 'possessed' has infected a whole nation to such an extent that everything is set in motion and has started rolling on its course towards perdition."[76][77]

Jung would later say that:

Hitler seemed like the 'double' of a real person, as if Hitler the man might be hiding inside like an appendix, and deliberately so concealed in order not to disturb the mechanism ... You know you could never talk to this man; because there is nobody there ... It is not an individual; it is an entire nation.[78]

In an interview with Carol Baumann in 1948, Jung denied rumors regarding any sympathy for the Nazi movement, saying:

It must be clear to anyone who has read any of my books that I have never been a Nazi sympathizer and I never have been anti-Semitic, and no amount of misquotation, mistranslation, or rearrangement of what I have written can alter the record of my true point of view. Nearly every one of these passages has been tampered with, either by malice or by ignorance. Furthermore, my friendly relations with a large group of Jewish colleagues and patients over a period of many years in itself disproves the charge of anti-Semitism.[79][d]

= = = = =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung# ... _to_Nazism

[Grigoris]

That you were prepared to believe that Merkel was a Nazi sympathiser based on these photos, is symptomatic of how most people these days operate, ruled more by passions and biases than common sense. Then of course those who don't take obvious sides in this madness are "fencesitters", "closet sympathisers of ..." etc

Well "Mr Commonsense" this "passionate and biased" individual took the photos at face value. I prefer, in cases like this, to err on the side of positive suspicion and if evidence comes to light to apologise, than to err on the side of negative suspicion and be caught with my pants down.

Does this make me a Merkel supporter, closet Nazi sympathiser, a right-winger, etc? No, it makes me someone who is interested in fact, in understanding, rather than fitting reality into my preconceived worldview.

So you have no preconceived world view either? You are a blank slate? A completely neutral and passive observer? Must be easy to do from the nice white middle-class suburban safety of Australia. Yes?

This compulsive mapping of the world onto one's existing framework, rather than coming with an open mind, open to discover what is there whether or not that conforms to one's biases is what saddens me the most. "You are either with us or against us." "It's a battle soldier - join us and defend the Good against the Evil or else..." etc Same old story on both sides of the madness.

Really? Greece came "this close" to civil war when the Golden Dawn thugs murdered Pavlos Fissa. If the (then) government hadn't acted out of their own self interest and jailed the leaders of Golden Dawn, the retaliations back and forth between Fascists and Anarchists (with the cops backing the Fascists) would have lead to a lot more than three deaths. And while it is easy for you to judge from the safety of your armchair, the reality is that young people here were (and are) willing to kill and die so as not to have a repeat of the American and English supported military junta (and worse) that plagued this country from 1967-1974.

Now you may wish to play the neutral and calculating observer, but I personally am categorically against Fascism (of left and right varieties). Full-stop. It should be smashed as soon as it raises its ugly head, otherwise... And one does not have to look back to the 70's and earlier. Look at what is happening in the Ukraine. Look at what happened in Yugoslavia. Look at what happened in frikin' Norway for crying out loud! That is what Fascism is about. And these are only European examples. Now I know that you will say that you don't support Fascism either, so what does that make you? A fence-sitter. A tacit supporter of BOTH extremes.

Fascism is not a phenomenon that can be coolly observed from the sidelines, if it is not actively resisted against then it just steamrolls over everything in its path. That is the nature of Fascism: You support it, or you are killed. Not speaking out against it is a form of support for it.

[Dan74]

SD, you are not hearing what I am saying. You can either engage with me or battle with the strawmen, your choice.

In this thread you accused Jung of being a Nazi, you suggested Merkel was a Nazi. What caused these 'positive suspicions' known in plain language as 'slander'? You seem to justify it by being an anti-Fascist, that's what Robespiere and his Directorate used to justify their horrors, as did the Bolshevics. They thought they were being righteous just like you. In this respect, their actions were not much different to the Fascist dictatorships, albeit motivated by nobler ideals.

So I ask you, is this good enough?

Look, it might surprise you that I've had my share of vigorous protests which involved police, holding cells and courts. I am not a fence sitter, Greg. What I am talking about here, is not jumping to conclusions, cultivating an open heart - sometimes even our opponents have worthwhile things to say and sometimes even our comrades can be dead wrong. To be able to rise above partisan divides when necessary, we need to see the passions with a cool clear eye and channel them as appropriate.

You are welcome to project all sorts of stuff on the people who disagree with you, but who will you be fooling? We are Dharma practitioners, ie Truth is our goal, not being right.

[Norwegian]

SD,

What happened in Norway?

[Grigoris]

In this thread you accused Jung of being a Nazi,

No I didn't.

...you suggested Merkel was a Nazi.

Possibly is, not was. Democratic she defintely is NOT.

What caused these 'positive suspicions' known in plain language as 'slander'? You seem to justify it by being an anti-Fascist, that's what Robespiere and his Directorate used to justify their horrors, as did the Bolshevics. They thought they were being righteous just like you. In this respect, their actions were not much different to the Fascist dictatorships, albeit motivated by nobler ideals.

Hogwash. These positive suspicions were based on evidence: writing of Jung on extolling the grandness of Nazism on the one hand and photos of Merkel hanging with neo-Nazis on the other hand. So it is not slander.

So I ask you, is this good enough?

Until proven to contrary it is good enough for me. If it wears jackboots and goosesteps then chances are...

...sometimes even our opponents have worthwhile things to say

Sure they do. Then they go out and knife immigrants, spray swastikas on their house doors, attack leftists protesting against austerity measures that are destroying the social fabric of society, vote in parliamnet in support of the measures while claiming to be against the system, etc...

...and sometimes even our comrades can be dead wrong.

Don't get me started on the "comrades".

...Truth is our goal, not being right.

60,000,000 dead is not enough truth for you? In the specific case the truth also points to what is right.

[Grigoris]

SD,

What happened in Norway?

You're kidding me, right? Breivik? Vikernes? Ring any bells?