It's a sign / Magical thinking is stupid

justsit · Post by **justsit** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:39 am

Yes! This thread is a sign it's time to go to bed. Thanks!

'Nite all.

padma norbu · Post by **padma norbu** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:01 am

sounds like magical thinking

Schrödinger’s Yidam · Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:12 am

"Once in a while you can get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

'Scarlet Begonias' by the Grateful Dead

Paul · Post by **Paul** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:43 am

Magical thinking is useless as it ignores the real cause of events. So it actually leaves a person disempowered. I guess you could say that samsara is nothing but magical thinking.

kirtu · Post by **kirtu** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:50 am

Not, both and neither. Magical thinking itself is harmful. However reality is deeply interdependent on many different levels (levels being a relative description).

Kirt

Grigoris · Post by **Grigoris** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:44 pm

I think magical thinking is stupid. Now you'll have to excuse me coz it's Naga day today and it has been raining cats and dogs since this morning, so I better go do some offerings before we start flooding. Hey! What do you know. Just thinking about it has caused the rain to stop already! It's a sign! Oh... it just started again.

KonchokZoepa · Post by **KonchokZoepa** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:10 pm

kirtu wrote:Not, both and neither. Magical thinking itself is harmful. However reality is deeply interdependent on many different levels (levels being a relative description).

Kirt

i would count that interdependent origination and experience thinking on any level as a logical thought process.

Post by **Johnny Dangerous** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:08 pm

I voted in favor of magical thinking, lol.

futerko · Post by **futerko** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:14 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I voted in favor of magical thinking, lol.

I'm still waiting for sign to let me know which way to vote.

padma norbu · Post by **padma norbu** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:14 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I voted in favor of magical thinking, lol.

I honestly am not sure... I like some of the answers above, though.

What prompted me to consider it was observing some incredibly stupid decisions by people I know. One said "it's a sign that it was meant to happen this way" and I've heard that from this person so many times over the past 12 years that his life flashed before my eyes. I thought, "you're in a marriage you wouldn't be in if you could do it over, with a child you wouldn't have if you could do it over, living in your mom's house and your mom drives you nuts, and like a hundred grand in debt... maybe it's time to stop thinking like this and start making decisions based on logic." Then, I thought of the George Michael song "gotta have faith" and I thought that if you don't have faith, you can be hopeless and not want to proceed with your life.

Post by **Johnny Dangerous** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:19 pm

I don't know yeah...i've known many people who make similar decisions based on "signs from the universe" and whatnot, on the level it's usually presented it seems really naive. I'm not sure why we'd need "signs" for mundane decisions that can simply be figured out anyway.In that case it can be a simple way of avoiding taking responsibility, which can't be good.

On the other hand, If you accept the Mahayana position that Karmic seeds can be burnt up and whatnot, to some degree it is a kind of 'magical thinking', in that you relationship to your phenomena is bound to change, you begin to attract certain things, repel certain things etc. It's not really a "sign" that someone put there or something, it's more like being able to see with some clarity where things are headed....or why they happened. So i'm not sure that actual decision making (like moving out of Mom's house) is contrary to seeing signs of changing Karma, it doesn't mean you stop making normal decisions. Personally i've had number of "this cannot be coincidence" things lately, I didn't base any decisions on them because i'd already made the decisions, but the events did confirm for me that i'd made the right decisions in the first place.

Anyway, hard to explain. I usually get really irritated with people who talk about signs from the universe that told them they should get a certain dog toy or whatever, but I have to confess my own way of navigating life is also not one that's just based on WYSIWYG logic.

Grigoris · Post by **Grigoris** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:21 pm

Oh look, it's stopped raining again! It's a sign that the practice went well and the Naga are happy! I knew I was on the right track!

Rick · Post by **Rick** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:26 pm

Believing in fairy tales (i.e., anything) is trouble.

Make-believing in fairy tales can help you stay on target.

Anam Thubten described emptiness as absence of concepts. But he often said that, if you're going to hold onto one concept, let it be enlightenment.

padma norbu · Post by **padma norbu** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:51 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Oh look, it's stopped raining again! It's a sign that the practice went well and the Naga are happy! I knew I was on the right track!

Do you believe this or are you being sarcastic or are you trying to illustrate that it may be a useful way of thinking "as if" and might actually work real observable results if you act "as if"?

Schrödinger’s Yidam · Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:53 pm

Ok, so how many people throw the I-Ching? Isn't that magical thinking too? Or having Lama Dawa throw a mo?

conebeckham · Post by **conebeckham** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:00 pm

"There are more things on heaven and earth, Padma Norbu, then are dreamt of in your philosophy."

-Wille the Shake

Seriously, though......there's "magical thinking," and then there is the limit of conceptual mind to comprehend the finer workings of interdependent origination. When "something" happens, it could, indeed, "be a sign"--though a sign of what, we don't know....and in the end, "signs" are merely mental signifiers, with no separate reality aside from the mind that signifies.

People who "poo poo" so-called Magical Thinking think they can explain and understand everything rationally, and conceptually, and that the dreamers are out of touch with the way things are. I say "no" to that. On the other hand, most Magical Thinking is ego-based in the final analysis, and usually has no basis in a true comprehension of interdependant origination--it's merely ego's "dream" as it were. Both rationalists, and our more, shall we say, "creative" types, are wrong. That's why there's no correct answer to your poll.

Schrödinger’s Yidam · Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:08 pm

Both rationalists, and our more, shall we say, "creative" types, are wrong. That's why there's no correct answer to your poll.

One thing I think we can safely say is that making too much of a drama out of it, i.e. becoming attached to it, is a mistake. Just like in sports you've got to "keep your eye on the ball".

tatpurusa · Post by **tatpurusa** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:35 pm

What if you consider yogacara?..?.

Schrödinger’s Yidam · Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:37 pm

tatpurusa wrote:What if you consider yogacara?..?.

Huh? What about yogacara?

Dharma Wheel