Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

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Nemo
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Nemo »

Perhaps if you could explain why it works that could be helpful. I see that it does not work as a treatment modality and has nothing like A&P to diagnose causes. Why doesn't it work better than placebo in double blind trials?
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Simon E. »

What is 'it ' ?
You have already dismissed all of psychiatry, psychology and trivialised psychotherapy, while demonstrating that you do not know one from another. What ' it '' are you addressing now ?
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Nemo
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Nemo »

All three actually. Take your pick. Psychiatry is slightly more fact based but still can't do much better than dubious meds. The specialties obviously overlap and you are still avoiding the thesis like you are afraid of it.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Simon E. »

Please define ' psychology ' Nemo.
In your own words.
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Nemo
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Nemo »

The study of mental states and behaviors. Also the industry that surrounds the academic field of psychology.

You don't have much confidence in the field either do you?
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Simon E. »

Nemo wrote:The study of mental states and behaviors. Also the industry that surrounds the academic field of psychology.

You don't have much confidence in the field either do you?
So it is the study of mental states and behaviours, well googled, but psychiatry is ' more factual' you say.

So you are claiming that psychologys empirical peer reviewed falsifiable studies are somehow lacking the Scientific Method ?


As psychology ( unlike psychotherapy ) passes all the requirements of an academic discipline, including peer group review, testible conclusions repeatable outcomes and falsibility, the onus is on you to disprove its legitimacy in the face of overwhelming acceptance by the wider scientific community.

You picked the wrong target. Psychotherapy has no academic pedigree. Which does not mean that it is not effective.
But then you do not know the difference anyway do you. ?
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Jesse »

Simon E. wrote:
Nemo wrote:The study of mental states and behaviors. Also the industry that surrounds the academic field of psychology.

You don't have much confidence in the field either do you?
So it is the study of mental states and behaviours, well googled, but psychiatry is ' more factual' you say.

So you are claiming that psychologys empirical peer reviewed falsifiable studies are somehow lacking the Scientific Method ?


As psychology ( unlike psychotherapy ) passes all the requirements of an academic discipline, including peer group review, testible conclusions repeatable outcomes and falsibility, the onus is on you to disprove its legitimacy in the face of overwhelming acceptance by the wider scientific community.

You picked the wrong target. Psychotherapy has no academic pedigree. Which does not mean that it is not effective.
But then you do not know the difference anyway do you. ?
Psychology works with intangibles; experiences, emotions, thoughts, and habits, and that is exactly why it is considered a soft science. It is hardly a science at all, more philosophy with a dab of science. That does not make it any less important a field, but I think psychologists are far too confident with their field, considering it consistently fails to help people.( In my experience ) I find it hilarious that eastern religious models far outshine psychology's best attempts at understanding the mind. I would never respect a psychologist who did not meditate, and I actually don't understand why it's not a required practice for them. They are working with the mind after all, yet they have no real interest in it. They insist on applying hard science methods to something these methods do not work on.

Just my 2c.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Malcolm »

Jesse wrote:
Psychology works with intangibles, experiences, emotions, thoughts, and habits, and that is exactly why it is considered a soft science.

That really depends on which program you are in, what school, etc.

For example, UVM's psychology program is pretty much hard science all the way.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Simon E. »

As are all the programmes recognised by the British Psychological Society which is the regulatory body for clinical psychologists in the U.K. It is legally obligatory to be a member to be able to describe yourself as a clinical psychologist in the U.K.
They do not deal in soft science.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Psychology works with intangibles; experiences, emotions, thoughts, and habits, and that is exactly why it is considered a soft science. It is hardly a science at all, more philosophy with a dab of science. That does not make it any less important a field, but I think psychologists are far too confident with their field, considering it consistently fails to help people.( In my experience )
This seems akin to complaining about oncologists not having good enough outcomes because lots of people don't stay in remission. Medicine in general, and the problems it's treats are complex. Something like addiction for example, to my knowledge, there is no "cure" for addiction, it can managed, but management is difficult, and people are likely to fall off the wagon. If that counts as "not curing people", i'd suggest the problem is with your notion of a permanent "cure" for something that simply defies the notion of a permanent cure - the same could be said for most chronic psychological disorders I suspect.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Jesse »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Psychology works with intangibles; experiences, emotions, thoughts, and habits, and that is exactly why it is considered a soft science. It is hardly a science at all, more philosophy with a dab of science. That does not make it any less important a field, but I think psychologists are far too confident with their field, considering it consistently fails to help people.( In my experience )
This seems akin to complaining about oncologists not having good enough outcomes because lots of people don't stay in remission. Medicine in general, and the problems it's treats are complex. Something like addiction for example, to my knowledge, there is no "cure" for addiction, it can managed, but management is difficult, and people are likely to fall off the wagon. If that counts as "not curing people", i'd suggest the problem is with your notion of a permanent "cure" for something that simply defies the notion of a permanent cure - the same could be said for most chronic psychological disorders I suspect.
Who is complaining? I am stating a fact, and the fact is psychology is essentially a pseudo-science masquerading as real science, and making a whole lot of money in the process. What they do is borderline immoral. When you charge people the prices they make, they better damn well at least treat something, and honestly I've yet to see a good example of that. You see the difference is emotional problems can not be 'cured', or 'treated' by these people, at best they can inform people of ways to manage their problems, give them different ways to see things etc.

The industry also has quite a history of causing more harm than good, and I see the trend continuing today. Do I even need to bring up lobotomies and EST? Today the same continues with medications which damage the brain and mind just the same. They might as well call these drugs what they are - chemical straight jackets. Zombify and pacify people so that other people don't have to deal with them, and honestly because these 'doctors', have no idea how to help them.

Physical conditions can indeed be 'cured', by simple biology, chemistry etc. How do you bandage someones mind, you can't do it. Also, I never actually used the word cure, you did. I used the word 'help', so at least comprehend what someone writes before responding.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Jesse »

Simon E. wrote: They do not deal in soft science.
Keep telling yourself that.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Again psychologists don't prescribe medications.
You see the difference is emotional problems can not be 'cured', or 'treated' by these people, at best they can inform people of ways to manage their problems, give them different ways to see things etc.
That is not a small thing, so it sounds like the real complaint is just that you don't think it works as advertised. I'm curious as to what would consitute a "good outcome" for serious, long term mental health issues, and how exactly pyschology fails there. On the medications I can't argue much..at best they are useful when serious emotional triage is needed and generally terrible long term, IMO of course. We are certainly an over medicated society. Again though, for clarity's sake it would really help if you would stop lumping things like medication and over medication in with a discipline that doesn't normally prescribe medications. Amusingly, the people you are accusing of being pill-pushers (which I agree with to some degree) are the ones who are MD's - psychiatrists, not psychologists. There are a couple state exceptions to who can prescribe drugs...but as far as I know, it's still standard.

As an example, maybe one of you can name a chronic (rather than acute) physical condition that you feel stands out as a model of success in medicine where the majority of cases end in 'cure" or at least the kind of non-retrogressive help that you think psychology, psychotherapy etc. should result in.

Personally, I can't really think of a single chronic condition that works like that (but maybe you can) - because it seems that is the nature of chronic conditions. From that point of view, expecting mental health practices to lead to some kind of total remission is akin to expecting a Lupus patient to never need treatment again, or only need minor treatment.
Physical conditions can indeed be 'cured', by simple biology, chemistry etc. How do you bandage someones mind, you can't do it. Also, I never actually used the word cure, you did. I used the word 'help', so at least comprehend what someone writes before responding.
Yes, the best you can hope for is management. I am paying attention to what you are saying, I just think it's very shortsighted, so let's keep the tone civil. i don't doubt any of your experiences, and i've even had similar ones. And again, if this is so, please demonstrate a chronic condition with this kind of black and white, demonstrable success rate (better yet, since you seem to think it's a common thing in physical medicine, demonstrate multiple ones) and i'll lend more consideration to your argument that we should just scrap the entire mental health field.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Simon E. »

Jesse wrote:
Simon E. wrote: They do not deal in soft science.
Keep telling yourself that.
Perhaps you can tell me how you know what the British Psychological Society deals in, has their fame reached Virginia ?
I have regular dealings with them, do you ?
By the way psychologists have nothing to do with lobotomies, or the prescription of drugs. Have you not read the rest of the thread ?
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Nemo »

Simon you will have to do slightly better than I am smart and you are dumb. The main thesis is most psychological/psychiatric interventions from psychiatric drugs to Gestalt therapy are not much better than placebo in double blind controlled trials. This is why new drugs are not forthcoming. The drug trials must include placebo now. How has the field gotten better since electroconvulsive therapy and lobotomies? Or since the APA was taken to task for being largely funded by drug companies? Less damaging is not healing. What is the cause of mental illness? If you can't answer these basic questions you are simply protecting dogma. Shoot the message, not the messenger.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Simon E. »

Far be it from me to call anyone else dumb Nemo...however it is apparently necessary to point out the fact yet again
That psychiatric drugs, lobotomies, ETC, Gestalt Therapy etc are NOTHiNG to do with clinical psychology. They simply do not feature at all in clinical psychology. Frankly with smart guys like you who can't or won't do any basic homework on your subject dumb guys like me don't need an argument.


Do you never read posts that take a different view to yours ?
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Jesse »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Again psychologists don't prescribe medications.
You see the difference is emotional problems can not be 'cured', or 'treated' by these people, at best they can inform people of ways to manage their problems, give them different ways to see things etc.
That is not a small thing, so it sounds like the real complaint is just that you don't think it works as advertised. I'm curious as to what would consitute a "good outcome" for serious, long term mental health issues, and how exactly pyschology fails there. On the medications I can't argue much..at best they are useful when serious emotional triage is needed and generally terrible long term, IMO of course. We are certainly an over medicated society. Again though, for clarity's sake it would really help if you would stop lumping things like medication and over medication in with a discipline that doesn't normally prescribe medications. Amusingly, the people you are accusing of being pill-pushers (which I agree with to some degree) are the ones who are MD's - psychiatrists, not psychologists. There are a couple state exceptions to who can prescribe drugs...but as far as I know, it's still standard.

As an example, maybe one of you can name a chronic (rather than acute) physical condition that you feel stands out as a model of success in medicine where the majority of cases end in 'cure" or at least the kind of non-retrogressive help that you think psychology, psychotherapy etc. should result in.

Personally, I can't really think of a single chronic condition that works like that (but maybe you can) - because it seems that is the nature of chronic conditions. From that point of view, expecting mental health practices to lead to some kind of total remission is akin to expecting a Lupus patient to never need treatment again, or only need minor treatment.
Physical conditions can indeed be 'cured', by simple biology, chemistry etc. How do you bandage someones mind, you can't do it. Also, I never actually used the word cure, you did. I used the word 'help', so at least comprehend what someone writes before responding.
Yes, the best you can hope for is management. I am paying attention to what you are saying, I just think it's very shortsighted, so let's keep the tone civil. i don't doubt any of your experiences, and i've even had similar ones. And again, if this is so, please demonstrate a chronic condition with this kind of black and white, demonstrable success rate (better yet, since you seem to think it's a common thing in physical medicine, demonstrate multiple ones) and i'll lend more consideration to your argument that we should just scrap the entire mental health field.
Where did you see me proclaim psychologists prescribe medication? Therapy usually consists of seeing both a psychologist and psychiatrist, it's rare if ever one see's one without the other. So please don't use this argument anymore, I am not making that claim.

For one, Talk therapy, CBT etc do not work for psychotic disorders, nor severe OCD Disorders. Therapy tends to work for those who just need someone to talk to. Outside of that, they have no viable treatments outside of drug therapy, or a combination of drug therapy and a psychologist combination. If you are limiting your argument to only half of the treatment system, which is not how it works most of the time then those with disorders that do not respond are just shit out of luck, I'd say that's pretty terrible.

So essentially without psychiatry, psychology doesn't even have a method for dealing with most of these disorders, at least not any good ones. Most of my beef with psychology comes from personal experience, and that of experiences of friends and family. I can honestly say I don't know a single person who has been 'helped', by a psychologist, or by receiving therapy. On the contrary, most people end up with crushing debt that only further increases their suffering, and hopelessness because the system has failed them on numerous occasions.

To be blunt, psychology may help some people, but I've never heard good things, or experienced them, and you seem to be taking my arguments to extremes that I never insinuated. For one, I don't think the mental health field should be scrapped, I think it should be reformed, in fact I said exactly:
It is hardly a science at all, more philosophy with a dab of science. That does not make it any less important a field, but I think psychologists are far too confident with their field, considering it consistently fails to help people.( In my experience )
psychology is essentially a pseudo-science masquerading as real science, and making a whole lot of money in the process. What they do is borderline immoral. When you charge people the prices they make, they better damn well at least treat something, and honestly I've yet to see a good example of that.
And I stand by those arguments. When a profession fails to help people, yet charges extravagant fees despite this fact, is it blatantly taking advantage of the suffering of others and it pisses me the frak off, so I apologize if my hostility toward to subject is being misdirected.
Personally, I can't really think of a single chronic condition that works like that (but maybe you can) - because it seems that is the nature of chronic conditions. From that point of view, expecting mental health practices to lead to some kind of total remission is akin to expecting a Lupus patient to never need treatment again, or only need minor treatment.
This is exactly what I am arguing, I am saying psychology does Not help people, and I am not making the argument that mental disorders do not need continuous attention and treatment. Honestly Buddhism and meditation have done more for me than any psychologist, therapist, doctor, or medication, and the funny part is the most effective treatments in psychology are being borrowed and adapted from contemplative methodologies.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

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Again i really wish one of you could name of of those chronic conditions in the field of general medicine for which therapies exist with a high success rate. I am actually interested to know, since this is one of the things the argument seems to revolve around.
and the funny part is the most effective treatments in psychology are being borrowed and adapted from contemplative methodologies.
This is true, and personally I consider it a good thing. Doesn't that disprove your idea of the industry remaining static though..at least with the "softer" end of things, where these therapies are more likely to be used?
So essentially without psychiatry, psychology doesn't even have a method for dealing with most of these disorders, at least not any good ones. Most of my beef with psychology comes from personal experience, and that of experiences of friends and family. I can honestly say I don't know a single person who has been 'helped', by a psychologist, or by receiving therapy. On the contrary, most people end up with crushing debt that only further increases their suffering, and hopelessness because the system has failed them on numerous occasions.
Honestly I share some of your skepticism about psychiatry, but I have the suspicion it's more due to the difficulty of treating things liek Schizophrenia than it is a willful attempt at dishonesty...at least I don't think there is more willful dishonesty there than in the rest of the medical field, maybe that's not saying much. On Psychology though, my experience has been exactly the opposite, I am only functional today because of a couple of "soft" Therapists from my early 20s, and I know a ton of people in the same boat. One of these people I feel I owe a ton to. These days I do feel that meditation and Dharma practice does a better job of keeping me stable, but I never would have reached this point without those therapists.
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Simon E.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Simon E. »

I have wasted more than enough time on what amounts to a prolonged strawman. No more.
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Re: Is Psychotherapy Better Than Astrology?

Post by Jesse »

That psychiatric drugs, lobotomies, ETC, Gestalt Therapy etc are NOTHiNG to do with clinical psychology.
If psychologists had been able to help these people, the morons driving icepicks into peoples brains wouldn't of ever had the chance, no?
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