Perspective

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Re: Perspective

Postby monktastic » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:25 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:Hi Addy, I'm not sure what the relevance of the Dudjom quote is to the illustration? But I would add that each and every one of the perspectives shown would claim that it does not deserve to be included in the picture since it, and it alone, has the one true perspective, all the others are confused. That in itself should give one pause (I would hope).


Actually, assuming the "om" stands for Hinduism (which admittedly covers a diverse range of perspectives), then no, not every one claims it alone has the one true perspective. From the Rg Veda:

एकम् सत् विप्राः बहुधा वदन्ति
Ekam Sat Viprāha Bahudhā Vadanti
Truth is one, though the sages know it by many names

Most Hindus I know believe that many paths lead to the same final realization, though they use different paths to get there, and different words to describe it.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Perspective

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:25 pm

I believe it was David Frawley who observed that there are more religions inside of Hinduism than outside of it.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Perspective

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:57 pm

Sure, but the varying Hindu versions of union with God are not the same as Buddha's awakening, regardless of their claim that Shakyamuni was an avatar of Vishnu.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Perspective

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:31 am

we don't want all perspectives - religious, philosophical, scientific, humanist - to be the same! What would be the point of reincarnating in different times and cultures if it was always the same old same old? "Final realization"? How boring! Ramakrishna said "I want to eat sugar, I don't want to be sugar"!*









* (we already are sugar, but don't tell anyone)
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Re: Perspective

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:08 am

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Re: Perspective

Postby Adamantine » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:02 am

gad rgyangs wrote:we don't want all perspectives - religious, philosophical, scientific, humanist - to be the same! What would be the point of reincarnating in different times and cultures if it was always the same old same old? "Final realization"? How boring!


Well, from the Buddhist POV there is no point in reincarnating in different times and cultures other than delusion. It is suffering, not a smörgåsbord. The point of dharma is to part with delusion and reunite with what-is. Not to bounce around between colorful tasty versions of samsara. . . the hell realms are not so tasty I hear, and they are an inevitable destination. Actually, life on planet Earth realm isn't so great for most.. and getting bleaker every day due to the money-addiction of the .001%. Anyway, I hope the New Age is treating you well, I am sure there are great views at the moment. . but don't forget your parachute.
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Re: Perspective

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:35 am

Adamantine wrote:the hell realms are not so tasty I hear, and they are an inevitable destination.


be careful what beliefs you allow yourself to be programmed with: projection precedes perception.

Some flavors of Buddhism apparently claim that a moment of suffering negates a preceding moment of happiness. Doesn't it make as much (or as little) sense to say that a moment of happiness negates a moment of suffering?
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Re: Perspective

Postby Adamantine » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:53 am

gad rgyangs wrote:
Adamantine wrote:the hell realms are not so tasty I hear, and they are an inevitable destination.


be careful what beliefs you allow yourself to be programmed with: projection precedes perception.


You think I should be careful about being "programmed" with a belief in karma? I think you may want to be wary of being auto-programmed by nihilism. . . or in other words, "anything goes."



Some flavors of Buddhism apparently claim that a moment of suffering negates a preceding moment of happiness. Doesn't it make as much (or as little) sense to say that a moment of happiness negates a moment of suffering?


I don't think any flavors of Buddhism claim such a thing. And neither make sense.
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Re: Perspective

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:42 am

Adamantine wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:be careful what beliefs you allow yourself to be programmed with: projection precedes perception.


You think I should be careful about being "programmed" with a belief in karma? I think you may want to be wary of being auto-programmed by nihilism. . . or in other words, "anything goes."


I've been threatened with "hell realms" by fundamentalist Moslems and Christians too. It not a very attractive tactic, nor a convincing one.

Some flavors of Buddhism apparently claim that a moment of suffering negates a preceding moment of happiness. Doesn't it make as much (or as little) sense to say that a moment of happiness negates a moment of suffering?


I don't think any flavors of Buddhism claim such a thing. And neither make sense.


you're joking right? you've never heard the "licking honey off a razor" metaphor? Are you seriously claiming that most Buddhism doesn't portray "samsara" as nothing but suffering? There's even attempts to poison people's happiness by claiming that even when you think you're happy, you're actually suffering but you just dont know it!!!! There's a whole recent thread on "Make life Meaningless:" maybe go read the Nietzsche excerpt I posted there.

I posit that there is a direct correlation between fundamentalist mentalities that claim exclusive truth for their conceptual system, and the deployment of tales of hell realms (both literal and metaphorical) for people who don't bow to their system, and don't support their priesthood in the lifestyle to which it has grown accustomed.
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Re: Perspective

Postby Adamantine » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:38 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Adamantine wrote:You think I should be careful about being "programmed" with a belief in karma? I think you may want to be wary of being auto-programmed by nihilism. . . or in other words, "anything goes."


I've been threatened with "hell realms" by fundamentalist Moslems and Christians too. It not a very attractive tactic, nor a convincing one.


No one was threatening you with anything. However, if you are a student of Buddhadharma you should understand the nature of cyclic existence and transmigration, which is vastly different from a Christian or Muslim projection of heaven or hell. I recall Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche giving a teaching in Walden on the text "Parting From the Four Attachments", which for reference I will quote:

“If you are attached to this life, you are not a true spiritual practitioner;
If you are attached to samsara, you have no renunciation;
If you are attached to your own self-interest, you have no bodhichitta;
If there is grasping, you do not have the View.”


These were words spoken directly from sambhogakaya Majushri to Sachen Kunga Nyingpo.

While teaching on this text D.K.Rinpoche actually brought up the issue of Western Dharma teachers discarding rebirth.. and he made a very clear and powerful point that Dharma as we know it is completely lost at this point-- because ultimately as Dharma practitioners we should be focused on cultivating the fruits of practice for future lives, as opposed to the limited focus on achieving some immediate temporary benefit in just this single life. If we didn't believe in rebirth he said, we mine as well just rob a bank and escape to retire in a luxurious place in the caribbean islands. Why practice Dharma, when in fact the purification of it may cause us more suffering in this very life? These were more or less his words.

There are plenty of threads here on hell realms. My view is that I currently have a family member who already lives in a type of hell realm created by their own destructive thought patterns and chronic physical bodily pain. I've also had friends who were severely addicted to hard drugs to the point of sickening and emaciating their bodies to near death-- and they even physically started to look like pretas / hungry ghosts, but I am sure their inner state was similar to that as well. And of course there's plenty of examples of hell-on-earth, from the angle of extreme forms of suffering we can perceive in animal or human realms: whether it's animals in factory farms or children in forced labor sweatshops. . . not to mention war zones in Africa or victims of cartel violence in Mexico.

So it is quite easy for me to look at these examples in planet Earth human and animal realms and deduce that 1. our mental state / habitual patterns of mind can create great suffering 2. our physical circumstances as in where we are born / our environmental circumstances can create great suffering. And from there it is not a giant leap to accept the likely possibility that there are rebirths with even more extreme forms of suffering. Hell is an English word. You can use other words, Avici for instance.. but unlike Christian or Muslim versions of eternal damnation, these unfortunate experiences are also temporary, even if they are said to last quite a long time. . .

Some flavors of Buddhism apparently claim that a moment of suffering negates a preceding moment of happiness. Doesn't it make as much (or as little) sense to say that a moment of happiness negates a moment of suffering?


I don't think any flavors of Buddhism claim such a thing. And neither make sense.


you're joking right? you've never heard the "licking honey off a razor" metaphor?


I've not only heard of "honey on a razor blade" but I've employed it often in conversation because I think it is quite accurate. But it doesn't seem like you are interpreting it correctly. It has nothing to do with "a moment of suffering negates a preceding moment of happiness". There is no negating. It is about accompanying. Love is a perfect example, because in romantic love there is always a great joy mixed with deep suffering, whether it is the suffering of not having enough of the one you love, of fearing their rejection, or knowing of their inevitable loss. . . or even just all the misunderstandings and communication breakdowns and fighting. If you want a good portrait of the suffering of someone hopelessly in love, I recommend Roland Barthes' book "A Lovers Discourse"

Are you seriously claiming that most Buddhism doesn't portray "samsara" as nothing but suffering? There's even attempts to poison people's happiness by claiming that even when you think you're happy, you're actually suffering but you just dont know it!!!! There's a whole recent thread on "Make life Meaningless:" maybe go read the Nietzsche excerpt I posted there.


It has nothing to do with poisoning people's happiness. I think you may not understand these teachings well. I'll relate it this way with a personal example: in the most beautiful moments of love and joy I experience with my wife, I always have an underlying sense of knowing that these moments will end, and that ultimately we will separate: if not before death, than at the time she dies before me, or I die before her. So the happiness in a given moment derived from our union in love is also pervaded with the reality that suffering follows like a shadow. There's endless other types of examples, and it is merely an expression of the way things are, not a dogmatic attempt to rob people of their happiness. It is more about robbing people of their ignorance. I know there are people who will avoid thinking about old age, sickness or death until they are old, sick, or dying. . . but that doesn't mean they are immune to these realities and that Buddhism is a downer because it faces them head on.

And re: Nietzsche -I don't think you'll get far by quoting a nihilist philosopher on a Buddhist forum to contradict Buddhist teachings. Plus if you know anything about his life you'll have to admit he was an incredibly miserable man. Not exactly a good person to emulate if you are focused on happiness devoid of suffering.

I posit that there is a direct correlation between fundamentalist mentalities that claim exclusive truth for their conceptual system, and the deployment of tales of hell realms (both literal and metaphorical) for people who don't bow to their system, and don't support their priesthood in the lifestyle to which it has grown accustomed.
It is certain that threats of hell realms can be used in these ways, as can actual immediate threats with imprisonment, or torture in this very life(usually more effective). In general, the current priesthood is the sickeningly-rich, and anyone who outspokenly tries to assault the extreme holdings of the sickeningly rich to promote a more equitable world will be imprisoned, tortured or simply destroyed in various ways and senses. I don't think actual priests are holding much temporal power these days. Not much of a political tool in hell anymore. .

The wheel of life is the image of Buddhadharma, cycles similar to the cycles of seasons.. it is not to be confused with the threats or rewards of Eternalist systems. Nor should Dharma be confused with nihilistic extremes Image

In the Buddhist context, it functions as a mirror of our minds, not some empty threat. If we cultivate unhealthy negative states of mind and action then it will probably affect us in this life, but the momentum will lead us into an intensified manifestation of those actions mirrored in future incarnations. From a Buddhist view, these are all appearances, not ultimately real, a mere delusory cycling that can come to a pristine end-- so it is not at all the same as other traditions you cite.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Perspective

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:46 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
you're joking right? you've never heard the "licking honey off a razor" metaphor? Are you seriously claiming that most Buddhism doesn't portray "samsara" as nothing but suffering?


It is nothing but suffering, even Dzogchen tantras clearly state this.

There's even attempts to poison people's happiness by claiming that even when you think you're happy, you're actually suffering but you just dont know it!!!!


There is no need to attempt to poison such happiness, it is poisoned already. This happiness is termed "the suffering of change."
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Perspective

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:57 pm

Adamantine wrote:My view is that I currently have a family member who already lives in a type of hell realm created by their own destructive thought patterns and chronic physical bodily pain. I've also had friends who were severely addicted to hard drugs to the point of sickening and emaciating their bodies to near death-- and they even physically started to look like pretas / hungry ghosts, but I am sure their inner state was similar to that as well. And of course there's plenty of examples of hell-on-earth, from the angle of extreme forms of suffering we can perceive in animal or human realms: whether it's animals in factory farms or children in forced labor sweatshops. . . not to mention war zones in Africa or victims of cartel violence in Mexico.


quite so: the six realms are here and now. as to what happens after we die: the various systems have different theories. I guess we will just have to wait and find out on our own!

If you want a good portrait of the suffering of someone hopelessly in love


haha I remember it quite well from my younger days: definitely a form of insanity! But quite a lot of fun too, suffering and all. It certainly makes for good stories!

in the most beautiful moments of love and joy I experience with my wife, I always have an underlying sense of knowing that these moments will end, and that ultimately we will separate: if not before death, than at the time she dies before me, or I die before her. So the happiness in a given moment derived from our union in love is also pervaded with the reality that suffering follows like a shadow.


very good, and a most salutary meditation. Unfortunately you left out the most important part: meditations such as this result in a heightened poignancy concerning the beauty of the moment, and prevents one from taking anything transient for granted.

The Japanese have the most sophisticated understanding of this, called wabi-sabi.
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Re: Perspective

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:58 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
The Japanese have the most sophisticated understanding of this, called wabi-sabi.


Wabi-sabi (侘寂?) represents a comprehensive Japanese world view or aesthetic centered on the acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete".[1] It is a concept derived from the Buddhist teaching of the three marks of existence (三法印 sanbōin?), specifically impermanence (無常 mujō?), the other two being suffering (苦 ku?) and emptiness or absence of self-nature (空 kū?).
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Perspective

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
The Japanese have the most sophisticated understanding of this, called wabi-sabi.


Wabi-sabi (侘寂?) represents a comprehensive Japanese world view or aesthetic centered on the acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete".[1] It is a concept derived from the Buddhist teaching of the three marks of existence (三法印 sanbōin?), specifically impermanence (無常 mujō?), the other two being suffering (苦 ku?) and emptiness or absence of self-nature (空 kū?).


no one is claiming there is no such thing as suffering, the point is do you reject life altogether because of dualities like happiness/suffering (again: that other thread "make life meaningless") or practice upekṣā and non-attachment to all experience? Sometimes it seems that Buddhism is neurotically obsessed with suffering, attached to suffering. Ironic, no?

I do object though to the attempts to negate happiness by claiming that it is actually suffering. This is a dangerous form of cultivating negativity that can lead to the very kinds of hell realms in the here-and-now that Adamantine was referring to.
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Re: Perspective

Postby Adamantine » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:06 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:no one is claiming there is no such thing as suffering, the point is do you reject life altogether because of dualities like happiness/suffering (again: that other thread "make life meaningless") or practice upekṣā and non-attachment to all experience? Sometimes it seems that Buddhism is neurotically obsessed with suffering, attached to suffering. Ironic, no?


I don't think the Buddhadharma conveys a neurotic obsession with suffering. It rather encourages people not to shy away from seeing the full spectrum of their projections and grasping at temporary forms of happiness. Temporary and conditioned experiences of happiness are certainly meant to be experienced in full, not rejected, especially from a Vajrayana perspective: however they also should not be grasped at. Grasping at them will create further cascades of suffering, because grasping or attachment is a contaminated, or poisonous, emotion. If you are not willing to admit that, we will need to split off to a new topic for that discussion.

I do object though to the attempts to negate happiness by claiming that it is actually suffering. This is a dangerous form of cultivating negativity that can lead to the very kinds of hell realms in the here-and-now that Adamantine was referring to.
Again I don't agree at all. In the instance of the person I referred to who is often lost in destructive states of mind: the main spiraling cycle they are in involves believing and projecting so completely and sincerely in outer temporary forms of happiness, gambling everything on those, maybe even having fleeting experiences of love, success, or power while engaging in negative actions in pursuit of these happiness aims. --> and then hitting total and utter despair when they inevitably don't work out perfectly, or go totally wrong. When they hit the depths of despair, they then again grasp outwardly for a solution: usually alcohol or drugs. Of course, temporarily when drinking or high they may have more fleeting moments of so-called-happiness which gives them relief, but then inevitably they will feel even worse and more depressed when the effects of these substances wear off and their body is even more depleted, leaving their mind in a deeper hole of negativity than it initially was. So this I liken to a quickened cycle of revolving through various realm-types of states. If this person began to lose some of their faith in a permanent un-tainted outer form of happiness, and actually had real faith in the teachings of Buddhadharma, they would begin to develop some renunciation of grasping to outer forms of happiness, and begin cultivating positive and stabilizing states of mind through disciplined meditation practice. However their mind is so unruly from a life of indulging in these cycles, that they are terrified of sitting alone with their own mind and try to escape from that fear as much as possible.

So with that example, I will contest your proposed danger: I think it is far more of a real and evident danger to grasp after temporary forms of happiness with an unrealistic expectation projected onto them. It is much healthier to keep one's focus on cultivating positive states of mind in the way that Garchen Rinpoche learned from Khenpo Munsel in a Chinese prison camp.* It is important to not reject these temporary forms of happiness when they arise, but not to spend inordinate amounts of time cultivating them at the expense of cultivating relative or wisdom merit.


*Here's a quote from Garchen Rinpoche:
In prison Khenpo Munsel Rinpoche taught me this: “The extent of your realization will be known when you encounter difficult circumstances. You will not know the extent of your realization when things go well.” When you find yourself in a troublesome situation, when you are in great pain, when an intense emotion arises, only then will you know where you are at with practice.
He added: “Adverse circumstances reveal your hidden faults.” If you are able to hold awareness unwaveringly during such a time, and thus if you are not carried away by the force of the emotion, it is a sign that you have gained experience in practice.
If you were to practice mindful awareness with great diligence for just a month, if you were to recognize even the slightest thought and not allow your mind to wander off into delusion for that time, even in such a short time you would witness great changes.
Fierce afflictions would not faze you so much any more, because you would have gained personal experience in observing the illusory play. There is in fact just one remedy necessary—mindful awareness. It is the single sufficient remedy that transforms difficulties inside and out.

--H.E. Garchen Rinpoche
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Perspective

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:47 pm

I don't think anyone here is disputing that we can cultivate stupid thoughts and do stupid things and mess up our lives creating suffering for ourselves and those around us. You are talking about not grasping at temporary happiness as if I did not just mention equanimity and non-attachment in the very quote you are responding to. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Although its not really the topic of this thread, the question seems to boil down to the same one on the other thread: "Does life have any meaning beyond being an opportunity to practice dharma? Is art, romantic love, traveling, exploring, science, all a waste of time since it is not "freeing you from samsara"? Is our existence nothing but suffering?" I would say that answering "yes" to these questions is an attachment to negativity, which will generate more suffering just as surely as self-hatred, alcoholism, violence, etc.

I just had a flashback to the Bergman movie "Fanny and Alexander", which portrays two households: one which embraces life and love in all its joy and sorrow, and the other, the Bishop's household, that exemplifies self- and other-loathing, coldness, "seriousness", and violence, all under the banner of "piety" and religion.
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Re: Perspective

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:59 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
The Japanese have the most sophisticated understanding of this, called wabi-sabi.


Wabi-sabi (侘寂?) represents a comprehensive Japanese world view or aesthetic centered on the acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete".[1] It is a concept derived from the Buddhist teaching of the three marks of existence (三法印 sanbōin?), specifically impermanence (無常 mujō?), the other two being suffering (苦 ku?) and emptiness or absence of self-nature (空 kū?).


no one is claiming there is no such thing as suffering, the point is do you reject life altogether because of dualities like happiness/suffering (again: that other thread "make life meaningless") or practice upekṣā and non-attachment to all experience? Sometimes it seems that Buddhism is neurotically obsessed with suffering, attached to suffering. Ironic, no?

I do object though to the attempts to negate happiness by claiming that it is actually suffering. This is a dangerous form of cultivating negativity that can lead to the very kinds of hell realms in the here-and-now that Adamantine was referring to.


No, I simply understand that no matter how things may appear, no matter whatever samsaric happiness I experience, everything other than path dharmas are suffering. But it doesn't mean I reach for the hair shirt.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Perspective

Postby Adamantine » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:22 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:I don't think anyone here is disputing that we can cultivate stupid thoughts and do stupid things and mess up our lives creating suffering for ourselves and those around us. You are talking about not grasping at temporary happiness as if I did not just mention equanimity and non-attachment in the very quote you are responding to. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
I was responding to you using my own example of a hell-realm type of mental state
as your own example in warning against what you interpreted as Buddhadharma leading to a danger in rejecting "happiness" and cultivating negative states. I pointed out that in my example, that wasn't what was happening at all, rather it was the grasping after external ideas of happiness and rejecting the analysis of Buddhadharma (that conditioned existence is indeed suffering) that has led this person to tormented states.

Although its not really the topic of this thread, the question seems to boil down to the same one on the other thread: "Does life have any meaning beyond being an opportunity to practice dharma? Is art, romantic love, traveling, exploring, science, all a waste of time since it is not "freeing you from samsara"? Is our existence nothing but suffering?"
Well it simply depends on how one relates to these activities. If they are engaged in without projecting some unrealistic expectation upon them, and engaged in while cultivating mindfulness as described in the Garchen Rinpoche quote, then that is aligned with Dharma and you can have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. Remember, many of the Mahasiddhas were not outwardly renunciates but continued to perform their roles as kings or artisans or what have you. Saraha renounced being a monk and married, then took up the craft of making arrows and used his craft as a point of contemplation on piercing the veils of illusory appearance. You can do art, love, science or what have you, and still be practicing Dharma if you marry it to dharma through intention and mindfulness.

I would say that answering "yes" to these questions is an attachment to negativity, which will generate more suffering just as surely as self-hatred, alcoholism, violence, etc.
That is vast leap of logic and it doesn't make it across the chasm. See above.

I just had a flashback to the Bergman movie "Fanny and Alexander", which portrays two households: one which embraces life and love in all its joy and sorrow, and the other, the Bishop's household, that exemplifies self- and other-loathing, coldness, "seriousness", and violence, all under the banner of "piety" and religion.
I'm sure that the film makes valid points when aimed at a Christian Bishop. Conflating traditions is the mistake of your proposed image in the OP.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Perspective

Postby gad rgyangs » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:02 pm

Adamantine wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:I just had a flashback to the Bergman movie "Fanny and Alexander", which portrays two households: one which embraces life and love in all its joy and sorrow, and the other, the Bishop's household, that exemplifies self- and other-loathing, coldness, "seriousness", and violence, all under the banner of "piety" and religion.
I'm sure that the film makes valid points when aimed at a Christian Bishop. Conflating traditions is the mistake of your proposed image in the OP.


and having a rosy picture of asian religious institutions is an orientalist fantasy.
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Re: Perspective

Postby Malcolm » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:08 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:I just had a flashback to the Bergman movie "Fanny and Alexander", which portrays two households: one which embraces life and love in all its joy and sorrow, and the other, the Bishop's household, that exemplifies self- and other-loathing, coldness, "seriousness", and violence, all under the banner of "piety" and religion.
I'm sure that the film makes valid points when aimed at a Christian Bishop. Conflating traditions is the mistake of your proposed image in the OP.


and having a rosy picture of asian religious institutions is an orientalist fantasy.


And all of this is irrelevant to the Buddha's contention "sarva dukhaṃ". You don't have to agree, but it is one of the foundation teachings of the Buddhist view. You can fight it, struggle with it, but in the end "sarva dukkhaṃ", there is nothing left out of this, apart from the path.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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