Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

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Natan
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
If that's the transmission you follow. You can't just mix and match what fits your materialist preferences.
It has nothing to do with materialism. The process of the development of the channels in the body is precisely described in Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara, sgra thal gyur tantra and many others. Channels are physical structures through which flow vāyu and bindu.
Well ChNN is an authority on sgra thal gyur, and he says the central channel isn't physical. So perhaps you have assumed something. Mila followed Chakrasamvara and said the central channel is primordially pure. These are transmission lineages I follow. I don't have transmission of Kalacakra. What my teacher explained is that these are structures of the vajra body, which go with the consciousness after death. These are energetic. They generally match up with the body, but are not organs. The central channel is the core of oneself. So all the central parts generally match up. Vayu and bindus aren't physical either.
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Natan
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

pensum wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Zhen Li wrote:Ah, that makes more sense.
Je Mila said the central channel is primordially pure. So it can't be an organ.
Organs aren't primordially pure? Really? Are you sure about that?
According to Vajrayana the gross physical elements are impure result of samsaric activity. But could be I suppose. Depends on the transmission. There are no absolutes.
Last edited by Natan on Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Natan
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
So does it move?
Yes, wisdom vāyus move. There is one every thirty third breath cycle.
That don't mean it move. My teacher explained it don't move.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
If that's the transmission you follow. You can't just mix and match what fits your materialist preferences.
It has nothing to do with materialism. The process of the development of the channels in the body is precisely described in Kalacakra, Cakrasamvara, sgra thal gyur tantra and many others. Channels are physical structures through which flow vāyu and bindu.
Well ChNN is an authority on sgra thal gyur, and he says the central channel isn't physical. So perhaps you have assumed something.
I have assumed nothing. I read the text as well as the Nyinthig texts and so on. They are really quite clear. The channels exist in the body physically.
What my teacher explained is that these are structures of the vajra body, which go with the consciousness after death. These are energetic.
The body of a bardo being is made of fine matter, but it is still material.
Vayu and bindus aren't physical either.
Oh please. The vāyu is the refined aspect of the element of air which is derived from BREATHING. The bindu is made of earth and water [primarily], which come from one's father and mother.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
So does it move?
Yes, wisdom vāyus move. There is one every thirty third breath cycle.
That don't mean it move. My teacher explained it don't move.
They move, otherwise, how are they supposed to move into the central channel?

Another way to parse this however is mentioned by Padmasambhava in the Khandro Nyinthig:

Wisdom vāyu is free from movement, but since its energy [rtsal] forms as the body, the karmic vāyus move through the three channels.
Natan
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Well ChNN is an authority on sgra thal gyur, and he says the central channel isn't physical. So perhaps you have assumed something.
I have assumed nothing. I read the text as well as the Nyinthig texts and so on. They are really quite clear. The channels exist in the body physically.
What my teacher explained is that these are structures of the vajra body, which go with the consciousness after death. These are energetic.
The body of a bardo being is made of fine matter, but it is still material.
Vayu and bindus aren't physical either.
Oh please. The vāyu is the refined aspect of the element of air which is derived from BREATHING. The bindu is made of earth and water [primarily], which come from one's father and mother.
If you say so. I'm not willing to contradict my teacher in whose realization I trust, and upon whom my realization depends. My teacher explained the vayu and bindu is just a visualization or a kind of reflection. Keyword is refined. It's at the level of consciousness which is beyond physical. Whatever fine matter is in the bardo being it lost its connection to the corpse.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

Anyway as Sanderson points out, Vajrayana was only a skillful means to condition Shakta Shaivas to recognize fundamental Mahayana principles. If one doesn't have that predilection, then what's the point? hā hā
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm, this is something I don't understand. You have said that the view of Vajrayana in general is that there is nothing "out there", so what do words like "matter" even mean in this context, if there are only appearances?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote:
If you say so. I'm not willing to contradict my teacher in whose realization I trust, and upon whom my realization depends. My teacher explained the vayu and bindu is just a visualization or a kind of reflection. Keyword is refined. It's at the level of consciousness which is beyond physical. Whatever fine matter is in the bardo being it lost its connection to the corpse.
I do say so. Refined means processed through digestion, in this case, the lungs.

Yes, these things are just a visualization WHEN WE ARE visualizing them for the purpose of gtummo and so on. But there is no point to HOLDING THE BREATH if the vāyu is not just the element of air in the body.

Sam, you have clearly not understood the distinction between how we visualize things when we practice and how they naturally exist in our karmically developed body.

In Dzogchen the distinction between matter and consciousness is abandoned as an error. This is very clearly explained by Padmasambhava in the Khandro Nyinthig:
  • After first being created by the energy [rtsal] of wisdom, in the middle, as it was not recognized that the body of the refined part of the assembled elements actually is the five wisdoms, since this was not realized through intellectual views, the non-sentient and sentient both appear, but don’t believe it. Here, it is actually five wisdoms to begin with; in the middle, when the body is formed from assembly of the elements through ignorance grasping onto those [five wisdoms] also, it is actually the five wisdoms. The five aggregates, sense organs, and afflictions also are actually the five wisdoms. In the end, one transcends accepting, rejecting, proofs, and negations since those are realized to be real. As such, the sign of non-duality is [the body] disappearing into wisdom without any effluents because the critical point of the non-duality or sameness of the non-sentient and the sentient was understood according to the Guru’s intimate instruction.
This is why it is crazy to deny that the nāḍīs, vāyus and bindus are not physical. When you claim they are non-physical you are just falling into a totally dualistic error.

M
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:Malcolm, this is something I don't understand. You have said that the view of Vajrayana in general is that there is nothing "out there", so what do words like "matter" even mean in this context, if there are only appearances?

Dzogchen has a slightly different take on things in this respect than common Vajrayāna.
Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote:Anyway as Sanderson points out, Vajrayana was only a skillful means to condition Shakta Shaivas to recognize fundamental Mahayana principles.
Are you kidding? This is common knowledge for centuries.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
If you say so. I'm not willing to contradict my teacher in whose realization I trust, and upon whom my realization depends. My teacher explained the vayu and bindu is just a visualization or a kind of reflection. Keyword is refined. It's at the level of consciousness which is beyond physical. Whatever fine matter is in the bardo being it lost its connection to the corpse.
I do say so. Refined means processed through digestion, in this case, the lungs.

Yes, these things are just a visualization WHEN WE ARE visualizing them for the purpose of gtummo and so on. But there is no point to HOLDING THE BREATH if the vāyu is not just the element of air in the body.

Sam, you have clearly not understood the distinction between how we visualize things when we practice and how they naturally exist in our karmically developed body.

In Dzogchen the distinction between matter and consciousness is abandoned as an error. This is very clearly explained by Padmasambhava in the Khandro Nyinthig:
  • After first being created by the energy [rtsal] of wisdom, in the middle, as it was not recognized that the body of the refined part of the assembled elements actually is the five wisdoms, since this was not realized through intellectual views, the non-sentient and sentient both appear, but don’t believe it. Here, it is actually five wisdoms to begin with; in the middle, when the body is formed from assembly of the elements through ignorance grasping onto those [five wisdoms] also, it is actually the five wisdoms. The five aggregates, sense organs, and afflictions also are actually the five wisdoms. In the end, one transcends accepting, rejecting, proofs, and negations since those are realized to be real. As such, the sign of non-duality is [the body] disappearing into wisdom without any effluents because the critical point of the non-duality or sameness of the non-sentient and the sentient was understood according to the Guru’s intimate instruction.
This is why it is crazy to deny that the nāḍīs, vāyus and bindus are not physical. When you claim they are non-physical you are just falling into a totally dualistic error.

M
Hā you mean when you are claiming they are physical you are falling into dualistic error.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Instead of physical or matter vs consciousness, think of flesh, blood & nerves which are visible to the flesh eyes vs nadis etc which are not so visible.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Malcolm, this is something I don't understand. You have said that the view of Vajrayana in general is that there is nothing "out there", so what do words like "matter" even mean in this context, if there are only appearances?
Dzogchen has a slightly different take on things in this respect than common Vajrayāna.
OK, so can you explain that? This is very interesting to me.
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote:
I do say so.
So you are the teacher now?
Refined means processed through digestion, in this case, the lungs.

Yes, these things are just a visualization WHEN WE ARE visualizing them for the purpose of gtummo and so on. But there is no point to HOLDING THE BREATH if the vāyu is not just the element of air in the body.
Maybe there is no point in holding the breath. Maybe that's just a game like writing between the lines to learn letters.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: ...you mean when you are claiming they are physical you are falling into dualistic error.
No, it means that in Padmsambhava's Dzogchen there is no entity called "consciousness" which can be found separate from the five elements. Khenpo Ngachung points out that it is a special tenet of Dzogchen to hold that there are no realms where beings do not have physical bodies, including the so called "formless realms".
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Malcolm, this is something I don't understand. You have said that the view of Vajrayana in general is that there is nothing "out there", so what do words like "matter" even mean in this context, if there are only appearances?
Dzogchen has a slightly different take on things in this respect than common Vajrayāna.
OK, so can you explain that? This is very interesting to me.
Butting in... It's a secret. Uses the body and doesn't worry about visualizing.
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Natan
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote: ...you mean when you are claiming they are physical you are falling into dualistic error.
No, it means that in Padmsambhava's Dzogchen there is no entity called "consciousness" which can be found separate from the five elements. Khenpo Ngachung points out that it is a special tenet of Dzogchen to hold that there are no realms where beings do not have physical bodies, including the so called "formless realms".
Shady wisdom light bodies.
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Natan
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Natan »

Often the word dissolve is used. But this isn't an apt expression, because the dharmakaya is not like water and mind and elements are not like salt. The shadow doesn't dissolve when the sun comes out. This reflection just is no longer reflected.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Malcolm, this is something I don't understand. You have said that the view of Vajrayana in general is that there is nothing "out there", so what do words like "matter" even mean in this context, if there are only appearances?
Dzogchen has a slightly different take on things in this respect than common Vajrayāna.
OK, so can you explain that? This is very interesting to me.
Generally speaking, common Vajrayāna teachings hold that appearances are really just mental factors, events triggered by traces which are activated in the ālayavijñāna.

Dzogchen maintains however that appearances are the rtsal of wisdom, not mental factors. Everything we perceive as external is the five lights of wisdom misconstrued as the external elements because of the imputing ignorance and so on.
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