Restricted Publications-An Effective or Ineffective Tactic?

Anything goes (almost).

Restricted Publications-An Effective or Ineffective Tactic?

Postby Osho » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:28 pm

Discussion split from here.

conebeckham wrote:Just an FYI, saw that Elizabeth Callahan has translated this, along with Kongtrul's commentary, and it will be available as a restricted text in September from Shambhala. Website says you must have completed ngondro, have had pointing out instructions, and be practicing HYT yidam under the guidance of a qualified lama.


Pathetic.
Truly pathetic.
Presumably the book will be lodged in copyright libraries as per statute?
More about Mindfulness here
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
(Dogen).
User avatar
Osho
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby conebeckham » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:46 pm

I'm sure, along with all the other restricted texts they publish.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby practitioner » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:05 am

Osho wrote:Pathetic.
Truly pathetic.


I'd disagree, a translator using their time and expertise to give those who can't read Tibetan access to this text is hardly pathetic. Any restrictions are on the advice of their teacher, hardly a sound marketing strategy...
One should do nothing other than benefit sentient beings either directly or indirectly - Shantideva
User avatar
practitioner
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby mutsuk » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:26 am

practitioner wrote:
Osho wrote:Pathetic.
Truly pathetic.


I'd disagree, a translator using their time and expertise to give those who can't read Tibetan access to this text is hardly pathetic. Any restrictions are on the advice of their teacher, hardly a sound marketing strategy...

Then why do they generally charge so much for these "restricted books". A restricted book could be the same price as a normal book, no ? Not to mention, that these works can be found in markets for all public in Tibet. JLA found the Yangti of Dungtso Repa and the Yeshe Lama notes at a bookseller on a public market in Chamdo.... This restriction policy would probably be "acceptable" if it were not for its purpose: selling at higher prices...
mutsuk
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Osho » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:45 pm

Exactly.
Upon publication the work will be available for perusal free at any one of the copyright libraries in English speaking countries.
Beyond an initial small run of library and review copies the work is unlikely to be anything other than a 'print to order' work as it would be unlikely to fly off the shelves were it to be put on general sale.
Print to order academic texts always command a high price as they cost more to produce than print run works.
Quasi mystical restrictions upon information that, of necessity; will be in the public domain in copyright libraries - that indeed is truly beyond pathetic.
More about Mindfulness here
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
(Dogen).
User avatar
Osho
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:12 pm

practitioner wrote:
Osho wrote:Pathetic.
Truly pathetic.


I'd disagree, a translator using their time and expertise to give those who can't read Tibetan access to this text is hardly pathetic. Any restrictions are on the advice of their teacher, hardly a sound marketing strategy...


The point is these these books are freely available to people like me, translators, without any restrictions at all. So making the English translations restricted is just a kind of elitism.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12322
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:29 pm

conebeckham wrote:As for "elitism," well.....if the only people with free access to the texts are Tibetan readers, isn't that a form of elitism, as well?



That is the point. If you do not read Tibetan well, you are discriminated against in a form that those of who do read Tibetan well are not.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12322
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby conebeckham » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:31 pm

Ah! got it! Yes, that's true, Malcolm.

Who knows? Maybe it will inspire some to learn Tibetan, so they can get their fill of the juicy secrets! :smile:
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Norwegian » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:50 pm

It's not about getting ones juicy fill of secrets I think. It's about how some people are setting up even more roadblocks for practicioners. For me at least, I only buy books that are relevant to my path. So if there's something I can buy, but I know isn't relevant to me, I don't buy it.

If ones teacher says it's OK to read a specific text, for example the Zabmo Nangdon, because according to your teacher, you qualify to read and study it, but the publisher - in this case Shambhala - says you do not qualify, then what? It becomes a case of the publisher sort of assuming greater authority than ones own teacher, over a text that is available to anybody who speaks Tibetan without any kind of special restriction. This is not helpful at all.

So, you could opt to not buy the text, because the publisher says you don't qualify, or you could just say on the order form that you do qualify...
Norwegian
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby ngodrup » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:10 pm

Well, there are obstacles. but nobody says you have to
join this religion. Of course there are obstacles in samsara too...
ngodrup
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:58 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby mutsuk » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:46 pm

conebeckham wrote:Take a look at the Yeshe Lama, and the Guhyagarbha...etc.

And it's a real shame they are charged so much, when their original counterpart is available for free on TBRC...
mutsuk
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:47 pm

conebeckham wrote:It's not Shambhala who determines restrictions, but the translators or their teachers. In this case, it was the wish of Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso that certain requirements be met.

I think in all cases, it's not the publisher laying down the rules. Take a look at the Yeshe Lama, and the Guhyagarbha...etc.


The entire (reliable) translation of Longchenpa's commentary on Guhyagarbha is available for free on the internet. It is ludicrous therefore for anyone to restrict commentaries on it.

Everything in Yeshe Lama can be found in various books which anyone can buy. This ludicrous fetish for restriction really ought to be abandoned.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12322
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby conebeckham » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:53 pm

I'm not disagreeing, Malcolm--but, for instance, His Holiness Sakya Trizin is said to be the source of restrictions for the Lam Dre volume. It is the lamas who are the source of the restrictions. I'm just pointing this out for all readers.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:22 pm

conebeckham wrote:I'm not disagreeing, Malcolm--but, for instance, His Holiness Sakya Trizin is said to be the source of restrictions for the Lam Dre volume. It is the lamas who are the source of the restrictions. I'm just pointing this out for all readers.



Lamdre is an unrestricted download, and all the most essential Lamdre instructions (slob bshad) have been freely published with HHST's blessings as part of the Library of Tibetan Classics.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12322
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby conebeckham » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:46 pm

Right. I'm referring to Shambhala's edition of the Treasury of Esoteric Instructions.
http://www.shambhala.com/books/buddhism ... tions.html
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby mutsuk » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:12 pm

conebeckham wrote:Right. I'm referring to Shambhala's edition of the Treasury of Esoteric Instructions.
http://www.shambhala.com/books/buddhism ... tions.html

Which can also be found for free on the internet. Which means the restriction policy and charging high prices are totally useless.... Charge a normal price and you'd probably have less downloads and people likely to buy a hard copy.
mutsuk
 
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:35 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Malcolm » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:31 pm

conebeckham wrote:Right. I'm referring to Shambhala's edition of the Treasury of Esoteric Instructions.
http://www.shambhala.com/books/buddhism ... tions.html



Yes, this was published before the LTC's text was published, and the slob bshad is considered more profound. The LTC's book also has a complete commentary on the Vajra verses, written by Sachen.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
User avatar
Malcolm
 
Posts: 12322
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Motova » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:52 pm

conebeckham wrote:I can see both sides of the issue, personally.
Recently we had a thread about eating feces as Mahamudra practice. Lifted from Wiki.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamudra

Bottom of the page...

"Drinking Sexual Fluids
Sexual fluids (rakta and śukra) are Mahāmudrā in physical form. When you ingest sexual fluids consciously, you set off the sympathetic vibrations between sexual fluids and Great Bliss, and you spontaneously attain nondual awareness. Accordingly, the Hevajra Tantra instructs practitioners of Mahāmudrā to drink sexual fluids daily. In addition, in the ritual of Tasting the Nectar of Immortality (Amṛita Āsvādana) taught by Śabara, you take the sexual fluids generated by your lovemaking and place them into a cup of alcohol containing the pure substances of the Five Nectars: 1) feces, 2) urine, 3) human flesh, 4) female sexual fluids, and 5) male sexual fluids. You mix them together, blessing the drink with the dhāraṇī mantra of the deity, and ingest them, triggering an experience of Mahāmudrā."

That's gross. Makes me want to steer clear of Mahamudra... Is there anything else like this in Tibetan Buddhism? :o
Motova
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby kirtu » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:02 pm

Motova wrote:
conebeckham wrote:I can see both sides of the issue, personally.
Recently we had a thread about eating feces as Mahamudra practice. Lifted from Wiki.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamudra

Bottom of the page...

"Drinking Sexual Fluids...

That's gross. Makes me want to steer clear of Mahamudra... Is there anything else like this in Tibetan Buddhism? :o


Well don't take initiation with the Hindu sadhus ... :stirthepot:

Tibetan Buddhism is *full* of this stuff. However the meaning is not literal, except when it is. The Wikipedia article is taken out of context, for the most part. As Cone mentioned in that thread, this is one reason why secret practices are secret - they can be misunderstood, taken out of context and always need to be taught from guru to disciple.

Suffice it to say that most people will never practice something like this.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4570
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Postby Pero » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:I'm not disagreeing, Malcolm--but, for instance, His Holiness Sakya Trizin is said to be the source of restrictions for the Lam Dre volume. It is the lamas who are the source of the restrictions. I'm just pointing this out for all readers.



Lamdre is an unrestricted download, and all the most essential Lamdre instructions (slob bshad) have been freely published with HHST's blessings as part of the Library of Tibetan Classics.

Looks interesting but do you think it would be of any use to someone like me who doesn't practice/hasn't received Lamdre?


Tom wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Just an FYI, saw that Elizabeth Callahan has translated this, along with Kongtrul's commentary, and it will be available as a restricted text in September from Shambhala. Website says you must have completed ngondro, have had pointing out instructions, and be practicing HYT yidam under the guidance of a qualified lama.


This is great news.I actually support the publishing of certain books with restrictions since I think it encourages people to get instruction from lineage masters. But, I guess soon It will be a pdf on the internet and people will be quoting from it on dharmawheel!

That is funny because I think it totally depends on the person. Me, it doesn't have that effect at all. I don't see why I would run to receive some instruction that I don't know anything about. On the other hand if I were able to read something and found it interesting, then I certainly would try to get the transmission. Perfect example is "Buddhahood without meditation". If I hadn't read it I wouldn't be interested in getting that particular transmission (and there was an oppurtunity last year but alas my circumstances sucked and I couldn't go).
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1847
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Next

Return to Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LastLegend, Redfaery, Sherab Dorje and 12 guests

>