Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

[M.G.]

...but in terms of cold geopolitics, their travails are not of huge global importance.

I think your assessment is flawed. In terms of "cold geopolitics" Israels geographical position cuts off all direct overland contact between the African and the Arabic Islamic world. It is even shaped like a wedge! It also cuts off overland travel from Europe into Africa. Palestine was always a crucial geopolitical location. Why do you think all those wars were fought for control of the territory? Not because of its religious significance, I can assure you. That always was, and continues to be, the excuse. The smoke screen.

Why do you think the British were so hell bent on acquiring Palestine during the 1920's? Why did the Germans try to grab it during WWII? Crusaders? The 6 day war (an attempt by Egypt to re-establish contact with the Arabian peninsula)?

It's true that if a great power wants to build a Mediterranean empire, control of Israel/Palestine is essential. With the Soviet Union's fall, the only great power interested in the region is the United States.

Israel's status within the region is, at present and for decades to come, stable and locked. Palestinian uprisings are not going to destroy Israel, and no Arab armies are plotting to march upon her. The Arab-Israel conflict has basically shrunk down from the truly dramatic events of the mid-20th Century to the new normal of periodic militarily inconclusive wars. De facto, several (most?) Arab governments are fine with the Jewish state's existence. The agonies of the Israel/Palestine conflict draw a lot of attention, but I'd say their actual political significance is waning.

The one political question left open in the intermediate future is whether the parties will acquiesce to the creation of some sort of Palestinian state or not. (And that seems unlikely for now.)

[Dan74]

Greg, I don't know what this photo proves, to me (and I am a photographer) it could very easily be a forgery, with the child photoshopped in. Have a look here:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/02 ... xtography/

There are lots of images floating about that prove beyond any doubt that many children died just in the last month and this is indeed tragic beyond words. But demonising the IDF soldiers or Zionists which these days seems to be largely a codeword for Jews, is hardly helpful or appropriate.

I came across this video:

phpBB [video]

which shows a different picture, namely how keen some of these Palestinian kids are to provoke the soldiers and get a photo-op to show the evil Israelis (they don't seem very afraid, do they?), but I would not be surprised if there are incidents of bad behaviour by the IDF too.

Anyway I have had enough of these discussions to know that people will believe what they want to believe. One of the big wars is the war of lies, the propaganda war, and we are all victims of it.

[Son of Buddha]

So what is the solution?

Right now there can never be peace,there is to much tit for tat,he killed my palistinian dad so im going to kill his isreali son and vicea versa,its a never ending cycle of personal revenge.


In my opinion the solution is segregation and reperations.

(1)the gaza strip is 32 miles wide.
So Turkey or anouther arabic muslim country that is far enough away from isreal sets aside
32 miles of land for the palistinian people,Isreal and the U.S. and some Nato nations pay for the land and build houses,business for every single palistinian, and then give them all reperations checks to take care of them for 1 generations lifetime.
Seperate and segregate the palistinians from the isrealis,and ensure the palistinians economic embetterment and a better standard of living.

is everyone going to be happy? No
Palistine will lose its land.....and gain anouther.
And isreal will have to pay for and take care of their enemies.

[Son of Buddha]

Dan74

The picture is legit, its not a guy pointing a guy at a kid....it looks that way cause of how the picture was taken and how the image lays down 2D.

Look at the feet....... the kids feet are one foot behind the idf Soldiers feet.
This means the kid is one foot behind the soldier on his left side.

The soldiers weapon is at lowready and is roughly pointed 2 feet in front of the boy at the groups.
Also the soldier is not POINTING the weapon he is simply caring the weapon.
And when you walk with a gun the barrel will always be "flagging" something.
Rifles usually are pointed at the ground easier...... The Idf is carrying a S.A.W whicb is much heavier so we tend to sling it differently due to help with the weight so its barrel will end up waste level pointed more out front to the side.

So theres nothing to the picture.

[DNS]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apparently there is the claim by some Israelis and pro-Israelis that there is a Hollywood-style video group that edits and makes whole scenes of incidents to demonize the Israelis. Using computers and photoshop and other software would make such a thing very easy to do in this computer world we live in. If they are really doing that or not, I have no idea.

[tlee]

Considering the repetition of two ideas,
the victimization of Jews, and Muslim terrorists
it's clear who controls the media.

How many times have you read or heard about the holocaust or an attack on a Jewish person today?
Yesterday I saw the news reference the holocaust 3 times.
Amazing considering it happened over 60 years ago and 30 million+ Polish deaths are never mentioned.
How many of your non-Jewish extended family were put into concentration camps or just killed on the spot by the Nazis? But they get no mention at all.

It's scare tactics.
They scare Jews into supporting Israel,
they scare gentiles into supporting Middle Eastern wars with Israel's enemies,
and at the same time they get sympathy for a supposedly "Jewish" state
(the notion of having a ethnic/religious purity of population in Israel being the racist and xenophobic tenet of Israel).

As for Jews supporting Israel, that's a myth. I want a recount because it's preposterous.
You know who is the most vocal about criticizing Israel? Jews in Diaspora.
But they are completely ignored and attacked by the Zionists in their community until they are quiet.
Maybe none of you noticed that Theodor Hertzl, the founder of Zionism, was an atheist and married a gentile woman (meaning his kids are not considered Jewish).
Maybe none of you noticed that it's strictly forbidden by Judaism for Jews to reestablish Israel without G-d making it happen.
Maybe everyone has forgotten how the Zionists rejected the Orthodox Jews in the 1920's and how, during WW2 they published articles saying that the deaths of Orthodox Jews were a sacrifice to G-d.

Your polls are wrong. Jews don't support Israel, and European gentiles are too afraid to say anything because they'll be called an "anti-Semite" even though they're OPPOSING racism and xenophobia by rejecting Israel and it's media outlets.

But we are Buddhists, we don't have to even look into this mess of ethnic and political distinctions and Middle Eastern religious paradigms because it comes down to individual people beating down and killing innocent people.
And for those of you that are USA citizens, you're paying for both sides of this war. You're paying for Palestinian aid, you've paid over 180 billion to Israel not counting limitless weapons and nukes which Israel sells to unscrupulous countries and their terrorist puppets. You're paying Al Queda in Syria. You're paying who knows who through the failed reconstruction projects in Iraq. And on top of that, your government won't even tell you where all the money is going.

Take an outside perspective for a while.
Imagine you're sitting in Bhutan on your glitchy 56k internet connection reading about this.
Middle East? USA? Jews and Muslims fighting? $$$? Weapons? Ethno-religious purification of land? WW2?

[M.G.]

So what is the solution?

Right now there can never be peace,there is to much tit for tat,he killed my palistinian dad so im going to kill his isreali son and vicea versa,its a never ending cycle of personal revenge.


In my opinion the solution is segregation and reperations.

(1)the gaza strip is 32 miles wide.
So Turkey or anouther arabic muslim country that is far enough away from isreal sets aside
32 miles of land for the palistinian people,Isreal and the U.S. and some Nato nations pay for the land and build houses,business for every single palistinian, and then give them all reperations checks to take care of them for 1 generations lifetime.
Seperate and segregate the palistinians from the isrealis,and ensure the palistinians economic embetterment and a better standard of living.

is everyone going to be happy? No
Palistine will lose its land.....and gain anouther.
And isreal will have to pay for and take care of their enemies.

I can't imagine any Muslim country agreeing to this. Elements of the Palestinian leadership fought a bloody war against Jordan and were involved in conflicts in Lebanon (where the substantial internal Palestinian population are still treated as second-class non-citizens and barred from property ownership and many jobs) and have had bad relations with Kuwait (which expelled 200,000 Palestinians in the 90's) and, more recently Egypt. I think most countries would view the presence of a sizable Palestinian population in the way you describe as a security risk. Even if a Muslim country agreed to permanently host a Palestinian presence I can't see large numbers of Palestinians willingly choosing to leave their homes Gaza.

I'd agree that the sheer amount of bloodshed makes any peace difficult.

[Grigoris]

...or Zionists which these days seems to be largely a codeword for Jews, is hardly helpful or appropriate.

You call allocating blame for the situation demonizing? You think I am an anti-semite because I am anti-Zionist? Have you even read what I have posted so far?

which shows a different picture, namely how keen some of these Palestinian kids are to provoke the soldiers and get a photo-op to show the evil Israelis (they don't seem very afraid, do they?), but I would not be surprised if there are incidents of bad behaviour by the IDF too.

You wouldn't be surprised??? So the dead kids are all part of a photo shoot for propaganda purposes?

One of the big wars is the war of lies, the propaganda war, and we are all victims of it.

Victims huh? You mean like this?

dead children.jpg (12.57 KiB) Viewed 3315 times

Or is this just more propaganda? Maybe they got themselves killed on purpose just to demonise the IDF? Maybe Hamas killed them just to make Israel look bad? Maybe it's just photoshop? Maybe I should go get that lobotomy after all?

[Grigoris]

So theres nothing to the picture.

And there is nothing to this picture.

blindfolded child.jpg (10.98 KiB) Viewed 3314 times

Or this one.

child and soldier.jpg (9.69 KiB) Viewed 3315 times

Or this one.

child with soldiers.jpg (7.48 KiB) Viewed 3317 times

I'm sick of looking at pictures of dead children, so I will leave you with just these three examples to satisfy yourself with.

[Dan74]

...or Zionists which these days seems to be largely a codeword for Jews, is hardly helpful or appropriate.

You call allocating blame for the situation demonizing? You think I am an anti-semite because I am anti-Zionist? Have you even read what I have posted so far?

No I don't get the impression that you are anti-Semitic, but I'd rather avoid getting personal anyway. And yes, I've read a fair bit of what you've posted.

which shows a different picture, namely how keen some of these Palestinian kids are to provoke the soldiers and get a photo-op to show the evil Israelis (they don't seem very afraid, do they?), but I would not be surprised if there are incidents of bad behaviour by the IDF too.

You wouldn't be surprised??? So the dead kids are all part of a photo shoot for propaganda purposes?

There is a difference between children killed in an air-strike that missed the target and deliberate victimisation and targeting. For the victims it's the same, but the intention is different.

One of the big wars is the war of lies, the propaganda war, and we are all victims of it.

Victims huh? You mean like this?

dead children.jpg

Or is this just more propaganda? Maybe they got themselves killed on purpose just to demonise the IDF? Maybe Hamas killed them just to make Israel look bad? Maybe it's just photoshop? Maybe I should go get that lobotomy after all?

War is horrible and people get killed.

People also get killed in Israel by the rockets fired indiscriminately at civilian population but more insidious is the damage caused by running into bomb shelters multiple times a day. Yes, the number of deaths is not proportional (but would be a lot more on the Israeli side if not for the missile defense system) and I am not trying to argue that bombing Gaza was the moral thing to do. Nor am I trying to justify or whitewash even a single death of a child. I doubt though that anywhere else in history it's been different. Sri Lanka and the Tamils? Russia and the Chechens? Even England and the Irish?

But when your starting position is that the Jews have no business being there in the first place, no further discussion is possible.

It is easy to feel righteous and my view on this has shifted a lot after sharing an office with an Israeli for a year and doing more research. I still feel there is a certain 'might makes right' attitude which is utterly reprehensible, but has to be seen in the larger context. Israel and Iran are the two major powers in the region, with Qatar and the Sunni agenda, the third. I am afraid the problem we are seeing is largely due to the powerplay between these actors. People as usual are pawns.

Dan74

The picture is legit, its not a guy pointing a guy at a kid....it looks that way cause of how the picture was taken and how the image lays down 2D.

Look at the feet....... the kids feet are one foot behind the idf Soldiers feet.
This means the kid is one foot behind the soldier on his left side.

The soldiers weapon is at lowready and is roughly pointed 2 feet in front of the boy at the groups.
Also the soldier is not POINTING the weapon he is simply caring the weapon.
And when you walk with a gun the barrel will always be "flagging" something.
Rifles usually are pointed at the ground easier...... The Idf is carrying a S.A.W whicb is much heavier so we tend to sling it differently due to help with the weight so its barrel will end up waste level pointed more out front to the side.

So theres nothing to the picture.

You are right that the kid is a little bit behind, but there are other strange issues with this pic. Anyway.

[M.G.]

I think everyone understands that war is horrible and brings about unimaginable suffering. Civilians endure horrible agonies in the Arab-Israel conflict (with many more Palestinians dying than Israelis owing to the force differential between the sides) but I think everyone also understands that all wars produce images of incredible pain and despair.

To me, the question comes back to this thread's title: what realistically can be done to move the parties towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine?

[Dan74]

To me, the question comes back to this thread's title: what realistically can be done to move the parties towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine?

Thank you, M.G.

Some people may have forgotten but this thread came about because the thread on Prayers for the victims http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=17212 was getting hijacked by the discussion of the conflict. I named it this way because it is all too easy and facile to argue about who is more blameworthy, demonise one side or another, and much harder to understand the situation thoroughly and propose something constructive.

Refraining from giving rise to anger or not feeding this anger if it arises, is one little constructive step as I see it. Another would be extending an olive branch, Jew to Arab, Palestinian to an Israeli. But all these would be laughed out of town by those who argue that this conflict is much less about hate and land than about realpolitik and regional and even global issues that few are aware of.

[Nemo]

Cutting through Israel's propaganda is a good start. What are they thinking? It's either give them a country or genocide.

Over here the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement is probably the most effective tool to make Israel more likely to deal with the issue honestly.

This kind of thing worked very well on South Africa.
http://www.bdsmovement.net/2014/eu-bans ... ents-12100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Sherab]

... this conflict is much less about hate and land than about realpolitik and regional and even global issues that few are aware of.

If it is just realpolitik/regional/global issues, then there is always room for compromise.

For most religions, it is possible to separate it from politics and other secular affairs to a large extent. For Islam in its current form, it is practically impossible. Therein lies the crux of the problem. That's the gist of my argument.

[M.G.]

Cutting through Israel's propaganda is a good start. What are they thinking? It's either give them a country or genocide.

Over here the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement is probably the most effective tool to make Israel more likely to deal with the issue honestly.

This kind of thing worked very well on South Africa.
http://www.bdsmovement.net/2014/eu-bans ... ents-12100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I opined earlier in this thread that Israel/Palestine is dissimilar to South Africa. That said, if your argument is basically use economic pressure on Israel to move them towards a two-state solution, I'm inclined to agree with you.

I hear a lot about Israeli propaganda (and sometimes a bit about Arabist propaganda) - especially in the U.S.- but I honestly think Americans understand the basic issues of the Israel/Palestine conflict, including human rights concerns, much better than they do almost any other international regional dispute or occupation.

[M.G.]

... this conflict is much less about hate and land than about realpolitik and regional and even global issues that few are aware of.

If it is just realpolitik/regional/global issues, then there is always room for compromise.

For most religions, it is possible to separate it from politics and other secular affairs to a large extent. For Islam in its current form, it is practically impossible. Therein lies the crux of the problem. That's the gist of my argument.

I'd agree that this is partly a religious problem, but history shows predominantly Islamic states like Jordan can make peace with Israel when the political incentives are right. I also think Fundamentalist Judaism plays a role in exacerbating the conflict to the extent that it fuels much of Israel's settler movement, a serious obstacle to reconciliation (though not the only one.)

[Alex123]

Unfortunately, Israel will lose. You can't defeat barbarians by being nice. Hamas is an enemy. They use their own children as shields and attack Israeli children and other people. Then when Hamas causes death and mutilation of their own children they happily show it to the whole world.

Israel has the most human rights in that region, and that is its problem. Life sucks.

[M.G.]

Unfortunately, Israel will lose. You can't defeat barbarians by being nice. Hamas is an enemy. They use their own children as shields and attack Israeli children and other people. Then when Hamas causes death and mutilation of their own children they happily show it to the whole world.

Israel has the most human rights in that region, and that is its problem. Life sucks.

I think the argument that Israel has the best human rights record in the region is pretty debatable.

Within the green line it has the most liberal polity in the region, but in the West Bank proper it has in place a unique system whereby residents are subjected to disparate treatment and denied political rights on the basis of religion and ethnicity.

A sizable number of people (including myself) don't have a problem with a regional Jewish state and don't tow any party line regarding the conflict but object to Israel's practice of a form of institutionalized discrimination singular among modern, technologically advanced democracies.

[Alex123]

I think the argument that Israel has the best human rights record in the region is pretty debatable.

Compared to other countries, including US, they do.

Within the green line it has the most liberal polity in the region, but in the West Bank proper it has in place a unique system whereby residents are subjected to disparate treatment and denied political rights on the basis of religion and ethnicity.

A sizable number of people (including myself) don't have a problem with a regional Jewish state and don't tow any party line regarding the conflict but object to Israel's practice of a form of institutionalized discrimination singular among modern, technologically advanced democracies.

hamas is the problem, and they are using too effective tactics - cause the death/mutilation of children and then show how bad Israel is.

Unfortunately they demand an appropriate response, but good country such as Israel will not do it. Hamas won the PR battle.

[Sherab]

... this conflict is much less about hate and land than about realpolitik and regional and even global issues that few are aware of.

If it is just realpolitik/regional/global issues, then there is always room for compromise.

For most religions, it is possible to separate it from politics and other secular affairs to a large extent. For Islam in its current form, it is practically impossible. Therein lies the crux of the problem. That's the gist of my argument.

I'd agree that this is partly a religious problem, but history shows predominantly Islamic states like Jordan can make peace with Israel when the political incentives are right. I also think Fundamentalist Judaism plays a role in exacerbating the conflict to the extent that it fuels much of Israel's settler movement, a serious obstacle to reconciliation (though not the only one.)

I think saying that religion plays a part is an understatement. In the Middle East, it is hugely significant. It is not only a major cause of problem in the area, but it creates conditions which make resolution of the problem almost impossible. I noted that many Muslims and their apologists portray the problem in the Middle East as a political problem and not a problem stemming from religion. It is extremely rare to hear them admitting that religion plays a part, let alone a major part. I think they knew that they have to divert attention away from the role of their religion if they are to gain the upper hand in winning the hearts and minds of onlookers. I can't help but think that it is but a facet of taqiyya.

Nevertheless, as Egypt has shown, it is possible to enter into a peace treaty with Israel when the Muslim leaders are more secular than religious. Even then, there always remain the danger of a radically religious leader coming into power (think Morsi) and replacing the previously secular leader and re-igniting the problem. Therefore, to have a really permanent condition for peace, there must be reformation within the Arab world to remove religion as a player in the legal and political arena. However, as I mentioned previously, Islam is pretty encompassing and have its own set of laws (the Shar'ia, that being from Allah, is held as superior to secular laws) and governs a lot of areas including economics, politics and warfare. This makes the separation process rather difficult, if not impossible.