Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

[M.G.]

Yeaaah ... there is more than 50 years I know much about Palestinian and story of this part of the world. I'm born 48 ... does it tell you something ?

That it is high time that you moved on to a more constructive view?

LOL!!! ... my father was jewish, my family is a well known (since more than 500 years) family of cantors. Ask google with my name, you will learn about. Do you pretend to know more the story of Moses and so on ?

Good. So then you know that Moses lead an invasion on the people living in Palestine.

Of course I know all that. It is standard knowledge. Muslims can trace what they want, but they start as a religious group with Mohamet and the Koran ... that of course I've read. On the land of Israel some shepferd, philistins, coming from an area which is today Jordania (btw stollen by the present dynasty to the peoples of Palestine - Philistins).

So you agree that the Israeli state has no valid historical claim on the land.

But of course not all of them. For exemple, I've been living 10 years in Morrocco (so I know a bit muslims and so on) and Mohamed V, great father of the present king (nbr 6) is considered in Israel as a righteous person (just) ... but you certainly know also position of Morrocco in the Palestinian/Israelian conflict.

So then you agree that the Palestinian issue is not an issue with Islam, since an Islamic king can also be a supporter of Israel.

Israel is the only protection (our protection, starting with Greece which is not far away) to the Jihhad in Europa.

No, the only protection against Jihadists is to support liberal Islamic states. You see, Islam is not going to disapppear, actually it is increasing in popularity, so to avoid Islamic fundamentalism one must support Islamic liberalism.

See if Europe wanted to stem the growth of Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey (for example), then it would have been infinitely more intelligent to have allowed Turkey to become a member of the economic union back when Turkey had a Kemalist (secular) government, or at the beginning of Erdogans (Islamicist) "reign". Instead it chose to side with Israel (out of European feelings of guilt for their massacre of the Jewish people) and thus forced Turkey into a firmly anti-Israel position.

You don't make friends by treating people as enemies. It just doesn't work.

A couple thoughts:

The Moses story is mythology, pure and simple, and in my opinion has no role being taken seriously in a Buddhist discussion group except as an explanation for fundamentalism.

I think Europe is uneasy about Turkey for a lot of geopolitical reasons which don't have a whole lot to do with Israel. Certainly, Europeans I've spoken who aren't especially pro-Israel seemed pretty ambivalent there. To the extent Turkey's been moving away from Israel (and the fact that they used to have military ties with the Jewish state is more evidence that Muslims can have peaceful relations with the Jewish state when there are political incentives for such) that's probably less with being forced into that position by Europe then a matter of changing Turkish demographics and Erdogan's desire to make Turkey as an Islamic regional leader.

I do think there's an interesting discussion here, though, about what non-Muslims can do to discourage Islamic Fundamentalism. I'd broadly agree with Sherab Dorje that its very much in Western interests to encourage Islamic liberalism, as well as diversity in Islamic thought (one analyst has suggested that the West should support fringe Islamic practices like shamanism in that regard.)

[M.G.]

Discussions of this issue tend to get out of hand, as many here probably know, so I'd like to ask people to please confine their posts to addressing substantive issues and refrain from any personal remarks, please. Any ad homs by anyone to anyone from now on will earn a warning.

It would be nice to surprise ourselves and actually make it constructive, wouldn't it?

As online discussions on this topic go, this one hasn't been too bad! In my opinion, at least. It's actually worth asking why this conflict incites so much more emotion among outsiders than equally bloody disputes elsewhere. (I'd say religious passions and Western, especially American, involvement.)

[Sherab]

You know what I am upset about? Attempts by various apologists (I am talking in general here) to cloud the central issue behind the conflict: The illegal occupation of the land....

Here's a very brief history.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZY8m0cm ... ture=share" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rory]

Discussions of this issue tend to get out of hand, as many here probably know, so I'd like to ask people to please confine their posts to addressing substantive issues and refrain from any personal remarks, please. Any ad homs by anyone to anyone from now on will earn a warning.

It would be nice to surprise ourselves and actually make it constructive, wouldn't it?

As online discussions on this topic go, this one hasn't been too bad! In my opinion, at least. It's actually worth asking why this conflict incites so much more emotion among outsiders than equally bloody disputes elsewhere. (I'd say religious passions and Western, especially American, involvement.)

M.G. very good why this discussion? There are no heated discussions over the Crimean Tatars (cruel, they were persecuted by Stalin too), how about the religious minorities in Muslim lands: Copts, Yezidis, Bahai's, Christians in Iraq and Iran and Gaza & West Bank. I think it boils down (I'm Jewish) to this:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/brendan- ... 1408042650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
gassho
Rory
the sad irony is Europe is more anti-semitic than ever, driving more immigration to Israel, making Theodor Herzl's Zionism even more relevant to us today.

[Grigoris]

the sad irony is Europe is more anti-semitic than ever, driving more immigration to Israel, making Theodor Herzl's Zionism even more relevant to us today.

More irrelevant you mean. European anti-semitism and the pro-Zionist position of the US is setting the perfect trap for Jewish people. If Israelis do not quickly realise that Palestinians are actually their best allies, rather than their worst enemies, it will be too late for all involved. Israelis have to realise how they are being used as pawns in the game of world domination. As long as they continue to fall prey to racist Zionist propaganda, their future will be bleak.

Everybody is a victim in this game. I have Israeli friends that are totally scarred by their experiences in battle. Almost completely destroyed by them. Killing innocent people tends to do that to you.

[Mkoll]

It's actually worth asking why this conflict incites so much more emotion among outsiders than equally bloody disputes elsewhere. (I'd say religious passions and Western, especially American, involvement.)

Lots of media coverage is the first thing that comes to my mind.

[M.G.]

It's actually worth asking why this conflict incites so much more emotion among outsiders than equally bloody disputes elsewhere. (I'd say religious passions and Western, especially American, involvement.)

Lots of media coverage is the first thing that comes to my mind.

It's a media-darling, to be sure. Love it or hate it, Israel attracts interest.

At a global level, the Arab-Israel conflict is declining in significance. Post-Cold War America no longer has much strategic need for the alliance, and some (many?) Arab governments are basically OK with the existence of a Jewish State. Barring hugely unexpected events, there probably won't be another Nakba or dramatic, region-changing Six-Day War-type conflict again. In light of all of the dramatic events which have taken place in the region in the last few years, I think it's safe to say that the theory that the road to a peaceful region ran through Jerusalem has been disproven.

Sherab Dorje opined that Israel/Palestine is a pawn in the great game, and perhaps that's true in some sense, but in terms of cold geopolitics, their travails are not of huge global importance. (Though obviously the suffering of anyone caught in the middle of the conflict is very real and shouldn't be minimized.)

[tlee]

Can't you hear it?

The Palestinians have been crying, "why are you doing this to us?"
But it is drowned out by the Zionists screaming across the media about the "Muslim" threat.

The Orthodox Jews have been ripping out their hair in frustration while this is being done in their name.
But you can't hear it over the Zionists spamming culture and news with stories of victimization of Jews.

You think you're hearing from both sides, but it's just Zionists wearing different masks to manipulate public opinion.
A web of concepts was spun out of "religion", "ethnicity", "ownership", "rights", "self-preservation", etc.
As Buddhists we, at least, should be able to cut through this nonsense.

There is a victim and there is a criminal beating a population death for the past 66-94 years in a xenophobic hysteria while the Western World praises them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzUnaza ... e=youtu.be

[Dan74]

Can't you hear it?

The Palestinians have been crying, "why are you doing this to us?"
But it is drowned out by the Zionists screaming across the media about the "Muslim" threat.

The Orthodox Jews have been ripping out their hair in frustration while this is being done in their name.
But you can't hear it over the Zionists spamming culture and news with stories of victimization of Jews.

You think you're hearing from both sides, but it's just Zionists wearing different masks to manipulate public opinion.
A web of concepts was spun out of "religion", "ethnicity", "ownership", "rights", "self-preservation", etc.
As Buddhists we, at least, should be able to cut through this nonsense.

There is a victim and there is a criminal beating a population death for the past 66-94 years in a xenophobic hysteria while the Western World praises them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzUnaza ... e=youtu.be

You might like to elucidate what exactly riles you so much about 'the Zionists' because to me Zionists are simply people who support the existence of the State of Israel. Are you saying it should cease to exist? Is this the resolution you propose? In that case I understand why you posted that video.

This is what many Israelis think of it:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 72,00.html

[M.G.]

Can't you hear it?

The Palestinians have been crying, "why are you doing this to us?"
But it is drowned out by the Zionists screaming across the media about the "Muslim" threat.

The Orthodox Jews have been ripping out their hair in frustration while this is being done in their name.
But you can't hear it over the Zionists spamming culture and news with stories of victimization of Jews.

You think you're hearing from both sides, but it's just Zionists wearing different masks to manipulate public opinion.
A web of concepts was spun out of "religion", "ethnicity", "ownership", "rights", "self-preservation", etc.
As Buddhists we, at least, should be able to cut through this nonsense.

There is a victim and there is a criminal beating a population death for the past 66-94 years in a xenophobic hysteria while the Western World praises them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzUnaza ... e=youtu.be

The Dalai Lama seems to take a slightly more nuanced view of the Israel-Palestine conflict, so pretty clearly, not all Buddhists feel they should see this the same way as you:

http://www.davidsanger.com/stockimages/ ... .dalaiwall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Somewhat more seriously, it's untrue to say that the "Orthodox Jews have been ripping their hair in frustration while this is being done in their name." Only a tiny minority fringe if Orthodox Jewry is anti-Zionist. Many coalition with the Israeli right. In fact, a disproportionate share of Jewish settlers on the West Bank are Orthodox. (I've spoken to one or two.). The idea that religious Judaism is completely antithetical to Israeli policy is not only false, it's misleading and completely misreads the politics of contemporary Israel. Trust me, most of Orthodox Jewry has no problem with Israel's occupation.

I'd also say that, whatever one thinks of American media coverage of the Middle East, there is much more real awareness in the United States of human rights abuses in Palestine than in, say, Chechnya or Tibet. That doesn't make things better, exactly, but it's just not true that Americans are somehow more ignorant of Israeli human rights abuses than those happening elsewhere.

This is definitely opinion, but I think that convincing Israel and her supporters that non-belligerent arrangements with the Palestinians is in that country's long-term interests is a surer strategy for nudging the region towards sanity than completely demonizing everyone favoring the existence of some sort of Jewish state.

[tlee]

Xenophobic Hysteria

Look honestly at yourself.

When you turn on the news and see all these Palestinians bleeding through bandages and crying out in another language:
Do you see sentient beings, living people, with hopes and fears?
or
Do you see some soulless brown skinned gollum, humming "Allu Akbar" as it thinks of a way to rig a bomb to his 4 year old daughter to throw at white people passing by?

It is no good for me to argue all the little details because what happened in the past doesn't matter.
You can't blame these people for what someone else did.
You can't kill them all because one day they might hurt a white person.

I'm a Buddhist: I don't care about all the religious, ethnic, and political excuses for why it's okay to kill and imprison innocent people.

[Mkoll]

Do you see some soulless brown skinned gollum, humming "Allu Akbar" as it thinks of a way to rig a bomb to his 4 year old daughter to throw at white people passing by?

Just remember that that sick and ugly description you just gave us came from your mind, your imagination. I don't think most people are that heartless, and I don't think you are that heartless either.

[Dan74]

Xenophobic Hysteria

Look honestly at yourself.

When you turn on the news and see all these Palestinians bleeding through bandages and crying out in another language:
Do you see sentient beings, living people, with hopes and fears?
or
Do you see some soulless brown skinned gollum, humming "Allu Akbar" as it thinks of a way to rig a bomb to his 4 year old daughter to throw at white people passing by?

It is no good for me to argue all the little details because what happened in the past doesn't matter.
You can't blame these people for what someone else did.
You can't kill them all because one day they might hurt a white person.

I'm a Buddhist: I don't care about all the religious, ethnic, and political excuses for why it's okay to kill and imprison innocent people.

Anything I say is going to sound hollow and hypocritical compared to the unthinkable suffering over the past few weeks in Gaza.

But I don't see the situation in simplistic black-and-white terms. I share my office with a brilliant Israeli professor on Sabbatical at my university. He, like most Israelis, supported the war, not because he is indifferent to the suffering of the innocents - he was very upset and conflicted, but because they didn't know what else to do, under the barrage of the missiles, faced with an enemy hellbent on their destruction. This is how many if not most Israelis see it, rather than not caring or being against the two-state solution. They just don't know what else to do.

It is easy to feel righteous and indignant, see things as clear-cut, black-and-white, it takes a lot more effort to really listen to all sides and let go of the comfort of one's opinions. Truth, they say, is an unwelcome guest and we bolt our doors shut with certitudes rather than let it in, don't we?

[Sönam]

... If Israelis do not quickly realise that Palestinians are actually their best allies, rather than their worst enemies, it will be too late for all involved. Israelis have to realise how they are being used as pawns in the game of world domination. As long as they continue to fall prey to racist Zionist propaganda, their future will be bleak.
...

I will let the term Zionism out for now, because it's now used too much as a bad status ... do not forget that zionism, basically, is a socialist idea.

Curiously, I tend to think that: "If Palestinians do not quickly realise that Israelians are actually their best allies, rather than their worst enemies, it will be too late for all involved. Palestinians have to realise how they are being used as pawns in the game of Islamic domination."
... and it is so since long, since the time Israelian's government was left oriented. Arabs around have used, since long, Palestinians as a pawn for there "war against jewishs". The reason was to satisfy their hegemonic crack-down on their peoples.
But maybe that game has been running for too long ... possibly it could not come back to the actual original solution.
Ans please stop that crazy game of jewishs being invaders ... so are american and many other countries, y compris islamic countries (Jordania for exemple).

Sönam

[Sönam]

Xenophobic Hysteria

Look honestly at yourself.

When you turn on the news and see all these Palestinians bleeding through bandages and crying out in another language:
Do you see sentient beings, living people, with hopes and fears?
or
Do you see some soulless brown skinned gollum, humming "Allu Akbar" as it thinks of a way to rig a bomb to his 4 year old daughter to throw at white people passing by?

It is no good for me to argue all the little details because what happened in the past doesn't matter.
You can't blame these people for what someone else did.
You can't kill them all because one day they might hurt a white person.

I'm a Buddhist: I don't care about all the religious, ethnic, and political excuses for why it's okay to kill and imprison innocent people.

The point is that many bloody images you see in media with kids and so on, come from Syria and others muslims (against muslims) conflict in the world. So please relativize!

Sönam

[Grigoris]

Arabs around have used, since long, Palestinians as a pawn for there "war against jewishs". The reason was to satisfy their hegemonic crack-down on their peoples.

I said that everybody is a victim in this game. Palestinians are obviously pawns, it's the Israelis that have to realise how they are being used. It is the Israelis that are the agressors.

Ans please stop that crazy game of jewishs being invaders ... so are american and many other countries, y compris islamic countries (Jordania for exemple).

I make NO excuses for the US or any other country. You obviously completely overlooked two posts where I criticise the situation in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Ukraine...

[Edited out the ad hom.]

[Sönam]

What if I said that Israel is the actual real force against terror in this area ... http://www.barenakedislam.com/2014/08/0 ... n-in-iraq/

Sönam

[Grigoris]

[Grigoris]

I would say that two wrongs do not make a right.

[Grigoris]

...but in terms of cold geopolitics, their travails are not of huge global importance.

I think your assessment is flawed. In terms of "cold geopolitics" Israels geographical position cuts off all direct overland contact between the African and the Arabic Islamic world. It is even shaped like a wedge! It also cuts off overland travel from Europe into Africa. Palestine was always a crucial geopolitical location. Why do you think all those wars were fought for control of the territory? Not because of its religious significance, I can assure you. That always was, and continues to be, the excuse. The smoke screen.

Why do you think the British were so hell bent on acquiring Palestine during the 1920's? Why did the Germans try to grab it during WWII? Crusaders? The 6 day war (an attempt by Egypt to re-establish contact with the Arabian peninsula)?