Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby tlee » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:33 pm

May a sensitivity for truth remain ever strong in me.

The press, the governments, the citizens, refugees, and international commentators can all lie.
Israel does not have freedom of press, they have a military censor that can pull any news, any facebook post, and even conversations between Israelis. They make it their business to arrest citizens of other countries also.

If you're getting information from anyone that is in, or passed through Israel, you have to view it with skepticism.
Also, be skeptical of people claiming to be Pro-Palestine because they are often Zionists looking to pervert and detract from that side. For example, you see the French Anti-Israel protests? Do you believe the French, of all people, so injured from WW2 are going to say even the name Hitler without spitting? The Zionists join the crowd and start shouting "Hail Hitler" and then the media runs the story that the protests are Anti-semitic Nazis. This is an era of misinformation. Another example is the Ukrainian Jewish registry hoax, which was traced back to the Zionist "Anti-Defamation" League. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/04/21 ... ax-traced/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:34 pm

Dan74 wrote:Ok, your post started informative and ended... well, disappointingly, to be polite. If Islamic contributions disappeared we would likely be set back scientifically, mathematically in terms of the arts, etc by centuries. Nevermind the barbaric hubris behind the nonchalant dismissal of an entire culture.


My point is really simple — Islam is not your friend, regardless of whether you have Muslim friends or not. At best, under an Islamic govt., you will be forced to pay a substantial tax just to live in your home as non-Muslim. As a Buddhist, you will probably be killed.


Hebrews and Canaanites? So you take the Bible as a historical account of what actually happened? But if you do, you would know that Hebrew prophets condemned their people for not killing the Canaanites and intermarrying with them and accepting their gods.


Indeed. Just as modern radical Islamic leaders condemn the faint of heart among the "faithful" for not bring Jihad to our doorsteps.


We, as humanity, are heirs to all of our culture, with its sublime beauty, sweeping achievements as well as its excesses and horrors.


I don't agree.

Bascially, the best thing the American Revolution brought about was a form of government in which people were protected from religion. There may be disadvantages to our secular Western society, but our freedom from religion is our greatest strength as a culture. Cultures that are wholly grounded on a religious or ethnic basis are destined for obsolescence.
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Will » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:26 pm

While I have no sympathy for and am hostile to the Jihadists, the choice of a homeland by the Jews is odd. They had other offers and there was even a small counter-Zionist group working for a non-Jerusalem centered nation.

It is curious that Islam has sacred turf - Mecca - as do the Jews of Israel. Revering a sacred site is normal in all religions, but Buddhists have not, for example, made the Bodhi Tree into a site for nation building.

The priority of sacred dirt for the two groups, to the point of armed conflict, is sad and ridiculous. So I see no peaceful resolution at all - for now and the next century - at least.
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:50 pm

Will wrote:While I have no sympathy for and am hostile to the Jihadists, the choice of a homeland by the Jews is odd. They had other offers and there was even a small counter-Zionist group working for a non-Jerusalem centered nation.

It is curious that Islam has sacred turf - Mecca - as do the Jews of Israel. Revering a sacred site is normal in all religions, but Buddhists have not, for example, made the Bodhi Tree into a site for nation building.

The priority of sacred dirt for the two groups, to the point of armed conflict, is sad and ridiculous. So I see no peaceful resolution at all - for now and the next century - at least.



Ever, that place is going to be the the site of the first use of nuclear weapons since WWII, you mark my words. It's all going down in flames.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby M.G. » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Will wrote:While I have no sympathy for and am hostile to the Jihadists, the choice of a homeland by the Jews is odd. They had other offers and there was even a small counter-Zionist group working for a non-Jerusalem centered nation.

It is curious that Islam has sacred turf - Mecca - as do the Jews of Israel. Revering a sacred site is normal in all religions, but Buddhists have not, for example, made the Bodhi Tree into a site for nation building.

The priority of sacred dirt for the two groups, to the point of armed conflict, is sad and ridiculous. So I see no peaceful resolution at all - for now and the next century - at least.



Ever, that place is going to be the the site of the first use of nuclear weapons since WWII, you mark my words. It's all going down in flames.


It's most likely that or endless bouts of periodic inconclusive wars and skirmishes every few years for a long, long time.

One reason I'm willing to support something like an economic boycott of Israel is that that is the only I could see her government taking the steps needed to establish a viable Palestinian state, the only think I could ever realistically see changing the present caluclus.
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:12 am

Malcolm wrote:At best, under an Islamic govt., you will be forced to pay a substantial tax just to live in your home as non-Muslim.


This ~40 minute documentary puts journalists inside the Islamic State, the self-proclaimed Caliphate that now controls large portions of Syria and Iraq. Malcolm's statement is shown to be true under their interpretation of Sharia law.

Some of the images in the video are graphic and disturbing. Viewer discretion advised.

Vice News: The Islamic State
Peace,
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Sherab » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:13 am

Dan74 wrote:The Islamic world produced advances in science (eg Alhazen), mathematics (eg Omar Khayyam), arts , architecture and technology which in their time completely eclipsed any parallel developments in Europe. Not just the zero, but words as familiar to us as algorithm and algebra are Islamic imports.

Adherents to a religion normally do not have problems with science as long as there is no conflict with their religious teachings. It is when there are conflicts that we see the true colour of a religion and its adherents. In this regard, I think Buddhism and Buddhists are much more open.
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby plwk » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:38 am

Ever, that place is going to be the the site of the first use of nuclear weapons since WWII, you mark my words. It's all going down in flames.
Interestingly or not, you're not the first to say this... some religious fundies I know are awaiting for that day...
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Paul » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:59 am

Malcolm wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Ok, your post started informative and ended... well, disappointingly, to be polite. If Islamic contributions disappeared we would likely be set back scientifically, mathematically in terms of the arts, etc by centuries. Nevermind the barbaric hubris behind the nonchalant dismissal of an entire culture.


My point is really simple — Islam is not your friend, regardless of whether you have Muslim friends or not. At best, under an Islamic govt., you will be forced to pay a substantial tax just to live in your home as non-Muslim. As a Buddhist, you will probably be killed.


100% agree. Even a fairly mild version of Islam is uniquely dangerous to people of other (or no) religions.

What do you make of ISIS? It's dismaying and alarming here in the UK that there seems to be a significant interest from British Muslims in going over there to fight. The recent beheading of James Foley was apparently by a British guy.
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Dan74 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:32 am

M.G. wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Will wrote:While I have no sympathy for and am hostile to the Jihadists, the choice of a homeland by the Jews is odd. They had other offers and there was even a small counter-Zionist group working for a non-Jerusalem centered nation.

It is curious that Islam has sacred turf - Mecca - as do the Jews of Israel. Revering a sacred site is normal in all religions, but Buddhists have not, for example, made the Bodhi Tree into a site for nation building.

The priority of sacred dirt for the two groups, to the point of armed conflict, is sad and ridiculous. So I see no peaceful resolution at all - for now and the next century - at least.



Ever, that place is going to be the the site of the first use of nuclear weapons since WWII, you mark my words. It's all going down in flames.


It's most likely that or endless bouts of periodic inconclusive wars and skirmishes every few years for a long, long time.

One reason I'm willing to support something like an economic boycott of Israel is that that is the only I could see her government taking the steps needed to establish a viable Palestinian state, the only think I could ever realistically see changing the present caluclus.


The trouble with BDS and even with the beautiful article by Archbishop Tutu in Israeli press today http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.610687?v=66691173328C172D77ED27A198582751 is that it looks increasingly likely that the only settlement that will truly satisfy the Palestinians, especially Hamas and their adherents, is total destruction of Israel. This is certainly a common view among Israelis and the reason most of them don't see any prospects of a political solution and see anyone calling for pressure and sanctions as people helping bring about Israel's destruction.

Have a look at this and this is from the West Bank. Imagine what Gazan children are saying.



For my part, I don't know, but this is a view I've heard expressed many times and in order to understand the full picture, it helps to know what people think, doesn't it?

PS In relation to tlee's latest gem, here's a little article about the people he is citing: http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/01/06/buyer-beware-veterans-today-and-its-anti-israel-agenda/ who basically write that the Jews are behind all the anti-Semitic attacks to whip us sympathy and further their agenda. Who really cares about the facts when you know how things truly are?
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby M.G. » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:57 am

@Dan74 - I think the message to Israel needs to be, to paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, that if she wants to be accepted as a peer among Western nations, occupation needs to end.

Unfortunately the message too often is more often hyperbolic fiction along the lines of "Israel is a historical abomination and must cease to exist!" Case in point would be the citing of "Veterans Today", which is indeed a flat-out unabashed neo-Nazi site, despite the innocuous name, and among other things recently denied the Sandy Hook massacre ever took place. (Tell that to the parents of the kids killed.) Total, loathsome garbage and fiction, and there's no way most decent people could ever ally with that ilk.

There are indeed huge numbers of Palestinians who will never accept Israel in any form. I think Israel, the stronger power, has to take the initiative here by ending its settlement program. That's more what I would focus economic pressure on; basically something along the lines of "remove your settlers and we'll happily accept you as a peer" as opposed to "sign a final peace treaty if you want to do business with us."
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:14 pm

Sherab wrote:
Dan74 wrote:The Islamic world produced advances in science (eg Alhazen), mathematics (eg Omar Khayyam), arts , architecture and technology which in their time completely eclipsed any parallel developments in Europe. Not just the zero, but words as familiar to us as algorithm and algebra are Islamic imports.

Adherents to a religion normally do not have problems with science as long as there is no conflict with their religious teachings. It is when there are conflicts that we see the true colour of a religion and its adherents. In this regard, I think Buddhism and Buddhists are much more open.


Islam is actually very science-postive. They regard scientific advances as evidence of God's hand.
http://www.atikosha.org
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
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-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby M.G. » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:22 pm

@Malcolm (or any other knowledgeable person) - Tibet had a sizable Muslim population. Are there recorded instances of Tibetan Buddhists converting to Islam or Tibetan Muslims converting to Buddhism or of there having been cultural norms, rules, reactions, or stereotypes regarding such conversions?
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:59 pm

M.G. wrote:@Malcolm (or any other knowledgeable person) - Tibet had a sizable Muslim population. Are there recorded instances of Tibetan Buddhists converting to Islam or Tibetan Muslims converting to Buddhism or of there having been cultural norms, rules, reactions, or stereotypes regarding such conversions?


There was a small group of Muslim butchers in Lhasa, but that is about it. And no, there was not much conversion either way. Muslims never convert to other religions, or very rarely so, because they can be killed for doing so by any other Muslim.

There is a fair amount of forced conversion in Lhadak, mainly in the form of bride theft.

In a Muslim world, everyone but Muslims are second class citizens at best.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Sherab » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Dan74 wrote:The Islamic world produced advances in science (eg Alhazen), mathematics (eg Omar Khayyam), arts , architecture and technology which in their time completely eclipsed any parallel developments in Europe. Not just the zero, but words as familiar to us as algorithm and algebra are Islamic imports.

Adherents to a religion normally do not have problems with science as long as there is no conflict with their religious teachings. It is when there are conflicts that we see the true colour of a religion and its adherents. In this regard, I think Buddhism and Buddhists are much more open.


Islam is actually very science-postive. They regard scientific advances as evidence of God's hand.

Like certain Christians, Muslims do not accept the evolution of man. As mentioned before, they have no problems with science as long as their is no conflict with their religious teachings.
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:39 pm

Sherab wrote:Like certain Christians, Muslims do not accept the evolution of man. As mentioned before, they have no problems with science as long as their is no conflict with their religious teachings.


But they accept the evolution of everything else.
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Sherab » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:Like certain Christians, Muslims do not accept the evolution of man. As mentioned before, they have no problems with science as long as their is no conflict with their religious teachings.


But they accept the evolution of everything else.

That is beside the point. I mentioned that the true colour of an adherent to a religion will show when science conflicts with its religious teaching. Here is an example:
"Darwinism has already proved controversial. A prominent British imam in East London received death threats this year after delivering a lecture at his mosque about evolution. His offense? Saying there's no conflict between Darwinian theory and Islam. In the uproar that followed, Usama Hasan, a senior lecturer in business-information systems at Middlesex University and a fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society, retracted his comments but also criticized Islamic extremists; he later resigned from Middlesex." From http://chronicle.com/article/Does-Islam ... st/127924/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:57 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:Like certain Christians, Muslims do not accept the evolution of man. As mentioned before, they have no problems with science as long as their is no conflict with their religious teachings.


But they accept the evolution of everything else.

That is beside the point. I mentioned that the true colour of an adherent to a religion will show when science conflicts with its religious teaching.


So in your case, are you a materialist? I ask because there are any number of Buddhist teachings which are in conflict with science.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Sherab » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:But they accept the evolution of everything else.

That is beside the point. I mentioned that the true colour of an adherent to a religion will show when science conflicts with its religious teaching.


So in your case, are you a materialist? I ask because there are any number of Buddhist teachings which are in conflict with science.

I am perfectly fine when the evidence presented by science contradicts Buddhist teachings, I just accept it. I don't see how that necessarily will make me a materialist. I honestly don't follow your trend of thought. The point is that, unlike Muslims, I don't go round threatening those who uphold the teachings of science when it contradicts teachings of the religion.
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Re: Towards a resolution in Israel and Palestine

Postby Malcolm » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:36 pm

Sherab wrote:I am perfectly fine when the evidence presented by science contradicts Buddhist teachings, I just accept it. I don't see how that necessarily will make me a materialist.


It means you accept science as your ultimate arbiter of what is true or not. This is fine, but it means you accept science as ultimate truth.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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