Western Tulku and adequate training.

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frank123
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Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by frank123 »

I watched the film Tulku made by Chogyam Trungpa's son Gesar Mukpo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APuKa5-WVs4

I was saddened to see how the tulku system had affected some western tulkus in a negative way.Without the proper training and structure some seem to be very confused and have many doubts about their role and how they fit into the world.

In contrast i watched a documentary directly after on Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.In it his four sons are interviewed and speaks of his two grandchildren.They seem to be serious practitioners and are striving in teaching others.Just made me ponder about the responsibility people have for putting children in these roles.There is a lot of potential for creating suffering if th proper structure and training is not provided.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XxATvOIRqk
tlee
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by tlee »

Normally a tulku ends up with extra "parents" from a temple.
In the Western world, I don't think tulku parents want to give that much influence over their child away and the result is, from an early age, relatives of the tulku set themselves up as philosophical counter balances based on the idea that all world views should be presented equally and the child should decide for themselves. Inadvertently, they end up confusing the child by pulling them this way and that in an attempt to keep the child in an undecided state which they think is the safest psychologically. The relatives wait for the child to spontaneously form a strong opinion; which may never happen because the people around the child seem to give validity to the idea that all philosophies have equal credibility despite being contradictory.
And the end result is an adult who doesn't have confidence in their own ability to make decisions about the nature of the world or the best course of action in life.
Sherlock
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by Sherlock »

Do you mean Western parents or Tibetan parents or mixed parents?

If the father is working and they live somewhere without a real Buddhist community it can be difficult to give the child a full Buddhist education I guess. But I think it is also a tragedy we Buddhists don't have our own schools like Catholics, Jews and Muslims do that teach secular subjects together with religion

OTOH a training of lineage heads like in the Khon family is really special. I remember the biography of Dezhung Rinooiche saying the younger Khons in the US not being very interested in the Dharma, which is sad. In India they seem fine though.
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kirtu
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by kirtu »

Sherlock wrote:Do you mean Western parents or Tibetan parents or mixed parents?

If the father is working and they live somewhere without a real Buddhist community it can be difficult to give the child a full Buddhist education I guess. But I think it is also a tragedy we Buddhists don't have our own schools like Catholics, Jews and Muslims do that teach secular subjects together with religion
In the US there are two Buddhist high schools plus a Shambhalla education project of some kind plus a small number of essentially private elementary schools (and what used to be a de facto Buddhist elementary school in Hawaii). However since 2000 there have been several more (3 or 4) elementary and middle schools. This in a country of 317 M with 0.4 - 1% Buddhist in some sense. The issue is that Buddhists are diffused all over the country with concentrations in some cities, Southern California and Hawaii.
I remember the biography of Dezhung Rinooiche saying the younger Khons in the US not being very interested in the Dharma, which is sad.
Remember that HE Dezhung Rinpoche died in 1987. That observation applied to what is now the middle generation in the US and is no longer valid.

Kirt

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote:
I remember the biography of Dezhung Rinooiche saying the younger Khons in the US not being very interested in the Dharma, which is sad.
Remember that HE Dezhung Rinpoche died in 1987. That observation applied to what is now the middle generation in the US and is no longer valid.
Agreed , Kirt, there are a number of Phuntsog Phodrang Dungseys presently being trained in India. This is actually one of the main reasons HHST and HHJS agreed on the rotational system of Trizins, so all their training would not be wasted.
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kirtu
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by kirtu »

frank123 wrote:I watched the film Tulku made by Chogyam Trungpa's son Gesar Mukpo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APuKa5-WVs4

I was saddened to see how the tulku system had affected some western tulkus in a negative way.Without the proper training and structure some seem to be very confused and have many doubts about their role and how they fit into the world.
Well, they need to practice and study. I was upset to see that many hadn't really studied. Chagdud Tulku was very upfront about having to have to be forced to study back in Tibet. I wouldn't advocate something like that but the tulkus need to be proactive and then helped to study and practice on a serious basis.

Ironically the young man Wyatt who was recognized by Chagdud Tulku - the fact that he was recognized by Chagdud Tulku and still faced difficulties even though Chagud Tulku knew the difficulties and could have guided him was significant. I know that Chagdud Tulku died when Wyatt was just reaching his teens, a critical time for sure. Structures/resources should have been put into place to guide him. However ultimately Wyatt (and every other western "tulku") have to find the energy and direction from their own inner resources.
In contrast i watched a documentary directly after on Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.In it his four sons are interviewed and speaks of his two grandchildren.They seem to be serious practitioners and are striving in teaching others.Just made me ponder about the responsibility people have for putting children in these roles.There is a lot of potential for creating suffering if th proper structure and training is not provided.
Elites tend to produce elites.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote: However ultimately Wyatt (and every other western "tulku") have to find the energy and direction from their own inner resources.
Yes, just like normal people, since that is what they are.
Sherlock
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by Sherlock »

So what is ane extraordinary person?

Like Khunu Lama?
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kirtu
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by kirtu »

Sherlock wrote:So what is ane extraordinary person?

Like Khunu Lama?
Well Khunu Lama wasn't recognized as a tulku. He became extraordinary based on his own efforts. Of course this is also true for recognized tulkus. For example Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche was supposed to be not a very high tulku in the hierarchy but he manifested as the consummate Guru in this lifetime. So he also became extraordinary due to his own efforts.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by kirtu »

frank123 wrote:I watched the film Tulku made by Chogyam Trungpa's son Gesar Mukpo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APuKa5-WVs4

I was saddened to see how the tulku system had affected some western tulkus in a negative way.Without the proper training and structure some seem to be very confused and have many doubts about their role and how they fit into the world.
At the 50:40 mark Gesar (speaking with Wyatt) says that there's no way that someone born in the west is just going to hop into a Tibetan shedra and study for 14 years .... but of course many of us have studied informally for much longer periods of time and this was also a point that some lamas admitted that they had not understood about the western educational system - people from kindergarden to PhD do in fact study for 16-20+ years.

Even now we only have few structured Dharma educational activities (not even actual institutions with a couple of exceptions) available. So shedras in some form do have to be build out.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote: Even now we only have few structured Dharma educational activities (not even actual institutions with a couple of exceptions) available. So shedras in some form do have to be build out.

Kirt

Studying at a Shedra might be a viable career choice for a Tibetan, but not for a westerner, unless it is accompanied by western academic credentials. Even then, the idea that a westerner is going to be able to make one's living as a professional Dharma educator is slim at best.

It is a vocation, and one that generally does not reward well.
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kirtu
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by kirtu »

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote: Even now we only have few structured Dharma educational activities (not even actual institutions with a couple of exceptions) available. So shedras in some form do have to be build out.

Kirt

Studying at a Shedra might be a viable career choice for a Tibetan, but not for a westerner, unless it is accompanied by western academic credentials. Even then, the idea that a westerner is going to be able to make one's living as a professional Dharma educator is slim at best.

It is a vocation, and one that generally does not reward well.
The structure of the traditional shedra has to be modified. There might possibly be some degree of accreditation in a western sense. But the primary thing is that the course of study should be available up to the geshe and equivalent level, esp. for monks and nuns but also for laypeople.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote: Even now we only have few structured Dharma educational activities (not even actual institutions with a couple of exceptions) available. So shedras in some form do have to be build out.

Kirt

Studying at a Shedra might be a viable career choice for a Tibetan, but not for a westerner, unless it is accompanied by western academic credentials. Even then, the idea that a westerner is going to be able to make one's living as a professional Dharma educator is slim at best.

It is a vocation, and one that generally does not reward well.
The structure of the traditional shedra has to be modified. There might possibly be some degree of accreditation in a western sense. But the primary thing is that the course of study should be available up to the geshe and equivalent level, esp. for monks and nuns but also for laypeople.

Kirt
Sure, just keep your day job.
Punya
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by Punya »

the young man Wyatt who was recognized by Chagdud Tulku by Chagdud Tulku....
BTW, Wyatt is now studying Civil Engineering http://khyentsefoundation.org/2015/06/m ... tt-arnold/ but at the same time actively involved in dharmic activities.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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dreambow
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by dreambow »

Aint it sad? Without the cultural/spiritual cocoon of traditional Tibetan Buddhism they seem so full of doubts and the oft repeated how, why?
One rimpoche went as far as casting doubt on the Tulku system being truly Buddhist.... 700 years old its definitely enmeshed in the ancient Tibetan culture, which does not easily fit into the 'Chinese' view of Tibet and seems particularly alien to the west. You cannot pluck a venerable, patriarchal religious system such as this and transplant it in the west, it doesn't appear to work.
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Ayu
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Re: Western Tulku and adequate training.

Post by Ayu »

I'm necroing this, because I just saw the film.
No, I don't think it is all completely sad. The film just shows honestly, how everything is changing. This must not be regarded as sad ultimately. That's how everything goes.
Punya wrote:
the young man Wyatt who was recognized by Chagdud Tulku by Chagdud Tulku....
BTW, Wyatt is now studying Civil Engineering http://khyentsefoundation.org/2015/06/m ... tt-arnold/ but at the same time actively involved in dharmic activities.
I think, Wyatt looks pretty good in this link and it is wonderful, he found his way.
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