Essence of Conservatism

[Queequeg]

Malcolm: I basically think the primary problem with American gvt. is that not enough people participate in the system even minimally.

Not so much, it is the lack of voters educated in basic civics or even well informed ones. Suppose there is no practical way to fix that...

There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

I take it you oppose Common Core... another cause in common with conservatives...

[Iconodule]

Not so much, it is the lack of voters educated in basic civics or even well informed ones. Suppose there is no practical way to fix that...

There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

I take it you oppose Common Core... another cause in common with conservatives...

Paying teachers a decent salary is a non-starter with conservatives, who think teachers are glorified baby-sitters or something. Requiring a foreign language in elementary school would also likely raise their ire.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Not so much, it is the lack of voters educated in basic civics or even well informed ones. Suppose there is no practical way to fix that...

There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

I take it you oppose Common Core... another cause in common with conservatives...

Actually there are some progressives who oppose Common Core too:

http://www.badassteacher.org/?s=common+core

Common Core was basically created/pushed forward by the private sector..whatever it's other merits (which might be considerable IDK), it is in large part about making good employees, it seems to me.

[Iconodule]

Yeah, it's pretty rare to come across anyone who's happy with common core.

[Malcolm]

I take it you oppose Common Core... another cause in common with conservatives...

I don't know anything about it.

What I do know is that kids these days are leaving high school less educated than I did, with more deficits in reading skills, and so on.

We have slipped from being the best, to being something 29th in the world. The Italians have a better educational system than we do. The top five are all Asian countries, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. Finland is #6.

Children are simply not being well educated in our country, over all.

[Iconodule]

In Finland the teachers are paid (and trained) like doctors. In Asia there is a near universal reverence for teachers of course. It would take a major cultural shift for this to happen in a country where ignorance is upheld as a virtue.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I come from a family of (mostly liberal-leaning) teachers, and the overall attitude I hear about it is that it has some good features but is terrible in it's implementation. I can tell you already something dumb and having bad results resulting from Common Core (or at least standardized testing that I'm pretty sure originates with it) purely from my experience being the parent of a kinder-gardener.

[Johnny Dangerous]

In Finland the teachers are paid (and trained) like doctors. In Asia there is a near universal reverence for teachers of course. It would take a major cultural shift for this to happen in a country where ignorance is upheld as a virtue.

Secondary school now in the US is just about creating employees, it goes more and more in that direction all the time IMO. What community you live in makes a *huge* difference though. The variance in things like basic literacy and math skills is really big from state to state.

[Nicholas Weeks]

Malcolm: I basically think the primary problem with American gvt. is that not enough people participate in the system even minimally.

Not so much, it is the lack of voters educated in basic civics or even well informed ones. Suppose there is no practical way to fix that...

There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

In other words return to a more conservative approach; but this is why 'there is no practical way'. Do you think the teachers' unions in major cities and their local politicians will turn away from 'Progress' made or admit errors? No way.

[Malcolm]

Not so much, it is the lack of voters educated in basic civics or even well informed ones. Suppose there is no practical way to fix that...

There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

In other words return to a more conservative approach; but this is why 'there is no practical way'. Do you think the teachers' unions in major cities and their local politicians will turn away from 'Progress' made or admit errors? No way.

Ummm....look at the first item on the list...."start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary."

If you pay them more, their unions will be have less influence, and pose less problems, etc. But the Republicans insist on cutting funding for all social programs, especially education, arts, and so on.

The fact that our kids are as poorly educated as they are these days is a fault I lay at the doorstep first of lazy parents, but also at the feet of the Republican efforts to slash all public funding.

I guess the basic difference between us is that I strongly believe in public funding of humanities and arts and I think it is a loss that we have decided as a society that humanities and arts have no intrinsic worth. Just look at the all the Buddhist studies programs around the world that are being cut. Denmark, Australia, whose next?

[Johnny Dangerous]

Not so much, it is the lack of voters educated in basic civics or even well informed ones. Suppose there is no practical way to fix that...

There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

In other words return to a more conservative approach; but this is why 'there is no practical way'. Do you think the teachers' unions in major cities and their local politicians will turn away from 'Progress' made or admit errors? No way.

Are )986ing kidding me? The list above is exactly the sort of thing that most teachers want, how/why you think teachers unions have some big effect on that is beyond me. Most teachers want those kinds of things and end up (partially because of people like you, who devalue the huge contribution they make to society) jaded and disgusted. Teacher's unions aren't perfect, but laying the lack of those things at the feet of unions is straight up ridiculous, bordering on nonsensical.

Let me clue you in on something dude, teachers have little to no say in national education priorities, and that is a big part of the problem, those things are decided by bureaucrats and captains of industry, other sectors don't have much say, including ironically the people who do all the teaching.

[Malcolm]

There is, start paying K-12 teachers a decent salary, reinstitute civil studies (most schools do not have these programs any more) insist that our kids learn at least one foreign language (Spanish, Chinese, French or German) in elementary school, get rid of "new math," insist on a curriculum of reading actual books, etc.

In other words return to a more conservative approach; but this is why 'there is no practical way'. Do you think the teachers' unions in major cities and their local politicians will turn away from 'Progress' made or admit errors? No way.

Are )986ing kidding me? The list above is exactly the sort of thing that most teachers want, how/why you think teachers unions have some big effect on that is beyond me. Most teachers want those kinds of things and end up (partially because of people like you, who devalue the huge contribution they make to society) jaded and disgusted. Teacher's unions aren't perfect, but laying the lack of those things at the feet of unions is straight up ridiculous, bordering on nonsensical.

And dont get me started about Charter Schools...

[Kim O'Hara]

In Finland the teachers are paid (and trained) like doctors. In Asia there is a near universal reverence for teachers of course. It would take a major cultural shift for this to happen in a country where ignorance is upheld as a virtue.

Secondary school now in the US is just about creating employees, it goes more and more in that direction all the time IMO. ...

And we're back to neoliberalism.


Kim

[Johnny Dangerous]

In other words return to a more conservative approach; but this is why 'there is no practical way'. Do you think the teachers' unions in major cities and their local politicians will turn away from 'Progress' made or admit errors? No way.

Are )986ing kidding me? The list above is exactly the sort of thing that most teachers want, how/why you think teachers unions have some big effect on that is beyond me. Most teachers want those kinds of things and end up (partially because of people like you, who devalue the huge contribution they make to society) jaded and disgusted. Teacher's unions aren't perfect, but laying the lack of those things at the feet of unions is straight up ridiculous, bordering on nonsensical.

And dont get me started about Charter Schools...

Yep, they are a joke, and failing right and left these days...

They are a good example of the "new conservatism" that aims to dismantle public services and public life (rather than what it claims, simply limiting government influence), and thus far has ended up only making things worse, IMO.

[MiphamFan]

Most conservatives and self-proclaimed libertarians never read Adam Smith.

Smith did indeed state that those of "more than middling" fortunes, as long as the state set some standards of probation for the higher sciences, could find teachers themselves, but he also clearly stated that the state should provide for the education of the working class for at least the most essential parts of education, in order that workers in cities avoid "darkness and obscurity" which leads them to all manner of vice and profligacy. Take care of the weakest members of society, let the strong take care of themselves, that's also part of the precautionary principle and should be part of conservatism.

Encouraging of poetry, music and art by the state is also stated by him to dispel melancholy and gloom among the population, which leads to disorder. Those which wish for disorder hate the arts.

[Nicholas Weeks]

Johnny D : Try reading for meaning, not assuming so much. I am in favor of all of Malcolm's list, my relatives also are peppered with teachers, my wife for one. So stop with the 'people like you' crap.

In CA the Calif. Teachers Ass. has had a fine arrangement for 30? years or so with the state's pols. This state has been run by Dems for that time at least. So whether the CTA union pushed the pols to drop civics classes and the state Dems said fine or vice versa, the union was heavily involved.

The point is, the dye has been cast and it will be against human nature for the CTA and/or the state gov. to reverse field. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

[edited]

[Nicholas Weeks]

Back to Kirk - a site inspired by him, with much content by or about Russell Kirk:

http://www.theimaginativeconservative.o ... ssell-kirk

[AlexMcLeod]

There is no need for name calling, it hardly helps to gain the understanding of others.

Robert Kiyosaki has the right idea. It is impossible to change a monolithic system from the inside, so just make a new one that can do what needs to be done. That's what I plan on doing when I have kids. I'm going to build a Buddhist temple and k-12, and hire the best teachers for each subject we can afford, even if I have to stop eating to do it. That way, people who want their kids to be smart, healthy, and exposed to the Dharma have a place to go.

[Johnny Dangerous]

In CA the Calif. Teachers Ass. has had a fine arrangement for 30? years or so with the state's pols. This state has been run by Dems for that time at least. So whether the CTA union pushed the pols to drop civics classes and the state Dems said fine or vice versa, the union was heavily involved.

Do you have some proof, or even reason to suspect the union was involved in dropping civics classes, or did you just make that up? If you do, I'd be interested in reading it. If you don't then your logic seems ridiculous: CTA is democratic> democrats run CA> civics classes gone >therefore CTA got rid of civics classes. Is that about it or is there a deeper story?

I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Prove what wrong? You haven't made any concrete assertion. You are the one making a claim that state democrats conspired top get rid of Civics, if that's so, it's your burden to prove that happened. I don't doubt it's possible at all, but it really sounds you just pulled in out of your....hat.

my wife for one. So stop with the 'people like you' crap.

I meant "people who want to defund public education", if that's not you, then great, it seems to fit with your general PoV though.

[Nicholas Weeks]

With all the unfinished books on my shelves, time to add one by Russell Kirk (which I will finish). Which one though?

This article of his put me in mind to take action:

http://www.kirkcenter.org/index.php/det ... agination/

What then is the end, object, or purpose of humane letters? Why, the expression of the moral imagination; or, to put this truth in a more familiar phrase, the end of great books is ethical—to teach us what it means to be genuinely human.