If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
User avatar
cyril
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:47 am

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by cyril »

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Malcolm wrote:As for your contentions about Vajrayana practices, passing through mountains, etc is part and parcel of the tradition.
And I want to read stories about the performance of such in the last 350 years.
Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche talks in some of his books about things he witnessed personally in his youth in Tibet but I cannot quote those stories because they are part of restricted texts. There is, however, in "The lamp that enlightens narrow minds" (a non-restricted text) an interesting story about a master who could enter and exit his cave through its rock walls. Apparently, the name of that master was Drubthob Chamten and Rinpoche met him when travelling in the Kyegundo area with his uncle, Chokyi Wangchuk.
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -
frank123
Posts: 231
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by frank123 »

tomamundsen wrote:
Sentient Light wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: Yes, I understood. I'm just saying that it's an interesting siddhi. It could resolve all sorts of questions, e.g. what language(s) did the Buddha teach in?
I'm not sure if that would work. There've been accounts of other masters who can remember past lives when they were monastics during Sakyamuni's time, so I think that may be closer to the siddhi in reference.

I speak a couple different languages, but have the greatest command over English (my second language). Generally, if I view something in a different language, I recall the scenes in English unless I force the memory into the original language. So I think a person might just recall the meaning of the statements moreso than the actual language that was spoken.
It's also possible that it's even more complicated and radical than what we'd normally think... As Kalu Rinpoche says in this video, the Buddha would be able to speak and everyone in the audience would hear the teaching in their own native tongue.

phpBB [video]
Well if thats true about the audience being able to hear the teaching in the native tongue, why doesn't it happen with the any of the realized Masters around in the most recent history. I think we got to be careful what we believe about some of the stuff that was written a long time ago.
User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

How about Lawudo Lama Kunsang Yeshe, previous incarnation of Lama Zopa Rinpoche, who's life story is told in Garland of Devotion by Nyowang Chopel.
Lawudo Retreat Centre wrote:On the thirteenth day at midnight, Nyowang Chopel heard the sound of many girls crying in front of the Lama's cave. He thought the Lama was scolding his daughter and went to see, but there was no-one there and everything was very quiet. Thus the Buddhist deities of the 'white direction' were showing various signs of sorrow.

On the fourteenth day, the Lama's daughter summoned Nyowang Chopel and he saw that although the Lama was not ill, he was showing the aspect of being tired and would not eat the food offered by his daughter. When offered the food by Nyowang Chopel, however the Lawudo Lama said "I do not need any food, but for the sake of your livelihood to be successful, I shall eat", and he took a bowl of meat soup from the attendant.

Then, asking the date, the Lawudo Lama told Nyowang Chopel, "Good, Jetsun Mila went to the pureland of the Dakinis on the fourteenth, now go out and look at the sky". Nyowang did so and reported that the sky was clear. "And the moon?", asked the Lama. "There is a rainbow around the moon" replied Nyowang Chopel. "Can you hear a sound 'uhr-uhr' like an earthquake?" and Nyowang Chopel listened and reported that he could hear such a sound.

Lawudo Lama then instructed his attendant Nyowang Chopel to close the door of the cave and not let anybody in, not even his own daughter. Getting up suddenly he sat alternately in the three postures of the three Kayas and said many heartfelt prayers. He then said "Our teacher, Shakyamuni, when adopting this posture passed into the sorrowless state" and he lay down in the lion's posture, recited the syllable 'Ah' three times and passed away.

On the fifth day after his passing, a cremation house was built. The sun was shining brightly at the time of offering his holy body to fire, but some snowflakes in the shape of flowers fell. From the southwest, came a white cloud above the mountain tops, and gradually various clouds of rainbow colours gathered there. The sound of thousands of different musics were heard by all present, causing great amazement in their minds and they made prostrations and shed many tears.

Before his death, the ignorant people of Khumbu did not recognize Lawudo Lama as a realized being. He never went to perform rituals in people's homes, but always stayed in his cave meditating. He wore no external signs of a Dharma practitioner, but always wore an old white animal skin coat, long hair and big, round earrings. He used to be always on his seat, and if visitors should come by, he would open his hands in a warm giving attitude and invite them in. He could not write or speak well, but spent all his time meditating. Sometimes people laughed at him, saying "what kind of Lama are you?"
I think this shows us that realised masters don't show their realisations off, so saying that vajrayana practitioners don't have stories about attainment doesn't mean that they don't have attainments.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
HandsomeMonkeyking
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:36 pm

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking »

So actually there is noone who can say "I saw" only "I heard from.." about any such siddhi?
User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 958
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by PuerAzaelis »

I saw someone walk on the moon.

Also the other day I saw a baby being born.

How do you know everyone isn't a Buddha except you and that everything isn't a palace of miracles?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.
Sentient Light
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Sentient Light »

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:So actually there is noone who can say "I saw" only "I heard from.." about any such siddhi?
I have been witness to displays of many siddhis, though not often from Buddhist masters of any kind -- largely martial arts masters, Taoist masters, geomancers, folk conjurers, etc. Most of them aren't particularly that special or, even when it does seem particularly supermundane, I doubt it's enough to really convince materialists of anything special.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
HandsomeMonkeyking
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:36 pm

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking »

I have been witness to displays of many siddhis, though not often from Buddhist masters of any kind -- largely martial arts masters, Taoist masters, geomancers, folk conjurers, etc
What do you understand as a siddhi relating to martial artists? What could they do exactly?
I am also curious what you saw from taoist masters.
AlexMcLeod
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:54 am

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by AlexMcLeod »

Sentient Light wrote:I have been witness to displays of many siddhis, though not often from Buddhist masters of any kind -- largely martial arts masters, Taoist masters, geomancers, folk conjurers, etc. Most of them aren't particularly that special or, even when it does seem particularly supermundane, I doubt it's enough to really convince materialists of anything special.
Seconded. Almost all from martial artists.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:So actually there is noone who can say "I saw" only "I heard from.." about any such siddhi?
Well personally I've only met a few masters and all of them are incredibly humble about their practice so they'd never show their siddhis.

Although at the empowerment I was at, I watched Dagri Rinpoche turn blue like the Medicine Buddha.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
HandsomeMonkeyking
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:36 pm

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking »

Seconded. Almost all from martial artists.
Like what?
Sentient Light
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Sentient Light »

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:
What do you understand as a siddhi relating to martial artists? What could they do exactly?
I am also curious what you saw from taoist masters.
I mentioned in an earlier post that my father tames wild animals by doing little more than looking at them and pointing his finger. I know other martial artists who are capable of dropping or raising their body temperatures at will. There is the typical Iron Shirt Qigong stuff you normally see the Shaolin fighting monks performing, like supporting their whole weight on a sharp blade without being cut or having a team beat them with cinder blocks yet incurring no damage. There are more "soft abilities" too that are much harder to assure you is real. Healing techniques, for instance, where you can feel the energy being channeled through you as like... this is really hard to describe, because it's not a normal experience, but it's like waves of electricity localized on one spot. I had one master demonstrate a technique to me where my object was just to touch him while he "concentrated [his] energy" and up to a certain point, my body would literally not move any further. It wasn't like a force-field or anything. I could move up to him and then I just couldn't. And then he stepped forward, and I had to backpedal. Nothing was pressing against me, my body was just reacting to something and backing away instinctively. He once had a group of us stand in a circle around him, facing the other side, and told us to turn around when we felt something. He never explained what and said we'd just know... so he does the exercise and I turn around a few times when I feel a tickle or something, but he isn't looking at me when I do... and then this spot on the back of my neck just starts burning crazy hot, like someone lit a match and just stuck it there. I spun around immediately, slapped the back of my neck (cause it frak hurt) and there he was, ten feet behind me, looking right at me. He gave me a wink and continued the exercise with the others.

One of my friends is a spiritual healer / Taoist geomancer. He's the one who made me feel the electricity thing (the hot-back-of-neck thing was a different person). When he was first training under his master, he would occasionally practice on me, because he trusts me. One of these first sessions, he sat across the room and I was laying on a bed. And while he was doing his thing, my eyes were closed. Because there was light in the room, my vision was that red color when the light goes through your closed eyelids, you know? Anyway, after a few minutes, I could clearly see the silhouette of his shadow standing over me, practicing the skill he was training. And then he shifted in his seat and I knew he was still on the other side of the room, sitting in a chair.

When I was a boy, I went to temple once with my mother and a special monk had been brought into town. After his talk, he asked everyone to join him outside. So we all went out into the parking lot. It was a bright and sunny day, clear blue sky, and there was a single cloud formation hanging over the temple. The monk just smiled and looked up at the cloud. We looked up as well and saw the cloud take on the form of a perfectly sculpted standing Guanyin. She was even standing on a lotus pedastal, the petals of which had been stained orange-pink by the sunlight. I asked my mother about several years later, because I was sure I must've dreamed it, but she remembers it as clearly as I do. Technically not a siddhi at all, but I thought I'd include it because I do consider it a miraculous experience.

Many members of my family (myself included) can see, hear, and commune with ghosts. I'm not sure if you consider that a siddhi -- it's something I've grown up with my whole life (which used to scare the crap out of me until I started studying Buddhism more), but I think that's probably an ability that may be on rare side as well. (I have not cultivated the Divine Eye; I have never seen a deva to my knowledge.)

But this is all just fluff. My point is that this is all just sorta normal stuff and it's only "supernatural" if you haven't lived in that world and aren't exposed to the types of people who have pursued this training and live and breathe it.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
AlexMcLeod
Posts: 368
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:54 am

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by AlexMcLeod »

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote: Like what?
Mostly healing related things. I'd prefer not to talk details online.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Not trying to deny siddhi with this, but all the stuff the Shaolin monks do publicly is all purely body mechanics stuff and physics tricks. Some of it can be taught to people with little or no training even.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Vasana
Posts: 2231
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Vasana »

'Body mechanics ' are still essentially a factor in the genesis of more exotic siddhis, albeit the subtle-body's mechanics.

I take it most are familiar with this guy? Electrifying.

phpBB [video]
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
BuddhaFollower
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by BuddhaFollower »

Lobsang Chojor wrote:Although at the empowerment I was at, I watched Dagri Rinpoche turn blue like the Medicine Buddha.
Can you elaborate?
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Lobsang Chojor wrote:Although at the empowerment I was at, I watched Dagri Rinpoche turn blue like the Medicine Buddha.
Can you elaborate?
I was recieving the medicine buddha jenang from him and as he described part of the practice he had a blue glow and his skin appeared blue
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6997
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by kirtu »

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:
Lobsang Chojor wrote:Although at the empowerment I was at, I watched Dagri Rinpoche turn blue like the Medicine Buddha.
Can you elaborate?
I was recieving the medicine buddha jenang from him and as he described part of the practice he had a blue glow and his skin appeared blue
But this is a kind of personal vision. (although this would become problematic if it occurred regularly and if the vision were shared by others regularly).

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

kirtu wrote:But this is a kind of personal vision. (although this would become problematic if it occurred regularly and if the vision were shared by others regularly).

Kirt
Oh yes this is very personal.

How would it be problematic if it occurred regularly?
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6997
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by kirtu »

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
kirtu wrote:But this is a kind of personal vision. (although this would become problematic if it occurred regularly and if the vision were shared by others regularly).

Kirt
Oh yes this is very personal.

How would it be problematic if it occurred regularly?
Problematic in the sense that it would probably technically fit the definition of a siddhi even if the person had no actual intention to manifest it. So it just spontaneously happens. This is basically how healing siddhis tend to work at least in common Buddhism where spontaneous healing tends to occur based on the presence or prayers of a "charismatic" individual (usually attributed to their moral qualities) identified by a community.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
Lobsang Chojor
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:08 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: If Vajrayana is superior to Hinayana, how come no stories of Dipa Ma-like siddhis?

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

kirtu wrote:Problematic in the sense that it would probably technically fit the definition of a siddhi even if the person had no actual intention to manifest it. So it just spontaneously happens. This is basically how healing siddhis tend to work at least in common Buddhism where spontaneous healing tends to occur based on the presence or prayers of a "charismatic" individual (usually attributed to their moral qualities) identified by a community.

Kirt
Thanks Kirt
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ
Post Reply

Return to “Lounge”