End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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wisdom
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by wisdom »

Namdrol wrote:
wisdom wrote:Atika Qadisha (Something like the primordial Buddha, literally it means "The Ancient Holy One").
No, nothing at all like Samantabhadra.

Kabbalah and Dzogchen could not be further removed from one another.

Kabbaha is basically a mysticized neo-platonical emanationalism, Dzogchen is not.
I absolutely agree that Kabbalah and Dzogchen are not the same. I'm just saying there are elements of DO and other reflections of Buddhism in Kabbalah, just like one can find reflections of many different truths in many different forms of spirituality. Kabbalah lacks many things that Dzogchen has, and includes many things Dzogchen does not. I'm not saying they are identical. Yet a whole book could be written on the similarities between the two systems. Perhaps the foundational philosophy, and therefore the end realization, are different. The foundational philosophy of Kabbalah is emanationism, but beyond that point it recognizes almost all the points of DO. Many of the practices are extremely similar, much of the spiritual philosophy behind the practices is similar. Kabbalah even has its own kind of Bodhicitta, and considers it the foundation of all practice, that without it no good can come from the study of Kabbalah. They recognize the accumulation of merit in order to give it away. The list is quite long. They believe in reincarnation, that if you don't achieve perfection in this life, you have to keep coming back until you do. They recognize individuals as reincarnations of past masters, and its actually traditional in Kabbalah to do this, perhaps not to the extent of Buddhism, but nevertheless its a very prevalent belief. Its also believed that one can obtain the "soul" of other masters. The belief is the same as merging with the mind stream of past masters. The belief is that if one can make oneself similar enough to say, the Ari, one could emanate the "Soul" of the Ari. The concept of Soul and Mind in Kabbalah are almost interchangeable. In fact every level of Soul in Kabbalah is considered a level of Mind as well. Nefesh, Ruach, Neshamah, Chiah and Yechidah.

As for Atika Qadisha, its considered the Primordial Man. Beyond thoughts, beyond words, the source of all perfection, second to none, self existing, and without cause. That sounds a lot like my understanding of the Primordial Buddha, but I could be wrong.
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Lhug-Pa
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Lhug-Pa »

Namdrol, I just lost my entire post explaining about the Sumerian Tree of Life in relation to Sanchoniatho and the Greeks, etc.; although anyway, the following link depicts the Tree of Life from cultures around the world:

http://gnosticteachings.org/the-teachin ... -life.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When scrolling down on the above-linked page, we can see that a depiction of Nagarjuna by Buddhists, is almost identical in appearance to a Khemetic depiction of the Tree of Life by the Khemetians. :jawdrop:

Edit:

Also, the Zohar was originally an oral lineage only (likely with its own Outer, Inner, Secret, and Ultimate levels of meaning) for who knows how long before it came to be written down in any form. Similar to the Upadesha teachings.
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wisdom
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

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Lhug-Pa wrote:Well I would somewhat disagree Namdrol, in that "Kabbalah" would predate the written Zohar (and even the "Chaldean Book of Numbers"), and also predates Plato, Ammonius Saccas, Plotinus, Proclus, etc.; as implied in my previous post. If anything, "Kabbalah" would have its source in Samantabhadra/Samanatabhadri, and not only in the sense that everything does; but actully through a very ancient line of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that incarnated within various cultures over the millennia.
Kabbalah begins with the Zohar, more or less. At least in terms of it being called and considered 'Kabbalah'. The Zohar might be an older oral tradition written down (i think it was) in the 13th century. Nevertheless the ideas of Kabbalah are found in the older Merkavah Mysticism, and prior to that and far older in the Sefer Yetzirah.

Lhug-Pa wrote: I wonder if the many qualities of the Ten Sephiroth (which literally means "Jewels" in Hebrew hmmm....) can be also be attributed to the Ten Mahavidyas (Rigpa Chenmo in Tibetan?) that were most likely originally taught about by the Dravidians?
Probably not. In general Kabbalah recognizes mainly only one feminine force called the Shekinah. She exists in two states, fallen and arisen. In her fallen state she would be likened to the coiled Kundalini. In her risen state, she is likened to being in union with whatever name for her male opposite you want to choose (Purusha/Prakriti, Siva/Shakti, and so forth). Granted there is the tradition of recognizing that each Prophet is a Sefirotic Force, Abrahamah is Chesed, for example. His "Shekinah" is called Sarah. There is a Prophet/Wife or Male/Female combination for each of the ten Sefirot. Yet if such a tradition exists, its secret and mostly oral. Its never really expounded upon in anything I've personally read, but its mentioned all the same.

My point is that in Kabbalah there is the tradition that Wisdom comes from the Female Energy known as the Shekinah. Ones Wife is to be viewed as an emanation or incarnation of the Shekinah. Union with her is said to be the means to obtain Wisdom. In this sense its little different than the eastern Tantras in their view of sexual union with consorts. In order to obtain the Wisdom of the Shekinah, one has to cultivate the desire to receive in order to give, which is to say, to gain merit in order to give it away. One must also have created the right intention, which is selfless. Basically one needs Bodhicitta or else there are many dangers or at least road blocks to really practicing Kabbalah. Its even taught that this is the first thing one needs, and without it no progress is possible.

The list of similarities goes on and on...
Lhug-Pa wrote: It's no secret that the Hebrew teachings took much from Indian Dharma, one way or another.
I believe there are many, many similarities, even if the dissimilarities are enough to discount them as being anywhere near identical. I'm not espousing a salad-bar mentality of spirituality. All I am saying is that everything we know as spirituality is a reflection of One Truth. That One Truth is found reflected in every spiritual tradition on the planet. As a result of this, there are bound to be similar things between them all. Kabbalah and Buddhism actually have quite a lot in common, even if they have many things not in common, enough that they would never be compatible.

Why bother contemplating such things? Because it shows that the Truth is one, its reflections are many, its distortions are also many, and that the Dharma is the most pure reflection we have available to us on the planet (in my opinion).
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by alwayson »

alwayson wrote:Lhug-Pa,

How do you reconcile the basis of Western esoteriscism, kabbalah, with the the fact that everything is dependently originated in Buddhism?

Its simply impossible.

Any "Higher Principle/Reality" would have to be dependently originated in order to interact with our universe, otherwise it would be like trying to play the latest Call of Duty on Windows 3.0.
So I guess you dont have an answer.
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Lhug-Pa »

Alwayson

If you read the essential points of my posts in this thread, and Wisdom's posts, the answer is found there; even if not explained perfectly.

In short, it is related to the teachings on AIN, Da'ath, Adam Kadmon, and the Three Jewels (Jewels = Sephiroth: Kether, Chokmah, and Binah). Of course there are many subtleties regarding how these may or may not be completely compatible with Adi-Buddha, Karma, and Emptiness/Dependent Origination, the Four Seals, etc.

I'm no Adept, so I can't say with Absolute sureness whether Kabbalah, even in it's purest form, could lead to the same 'level' or 'quality' of Awareness as the practice of Buddha Dharma.

There's enough pointed out in this thread to indicate that it may be worth looking into though. For example, there are 'Karmamudra' instructions veiled in the Tree of Knowledge (Daath) teachings of Kabbalah, and Karmamudra is one of the Highest practices of Buddha Dharma (for more on this, see the GnosticTeachings and Sacred-Sex websites).
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
alwayson
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by alwayson »

wisdom wrote: The foundational philosophy of Kabbalah is emanationism, but beyond that point it recognizes almost all the points of DO.
Madhyamaka rules out Uncaused Principles, since it is impossible for an Uncaused Principle to interact with our dependently originated universe.

Its not a matter of belief.....it is simple Madhyamaka logic found in books off of Amazon.

Even Buddhas are dependently originated, because they logically have to be.
Last edited by alwayson on Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

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In the Gnostic Teachings, this apparent contradiction might be resolved by the difference between Ain-Soph, and Ain-Soph-Paranishpanna.

Even the Dalai Lama said something along the lines of that perhaps some 'Atoms' or 'Particles' (Ain-Soph Atoms) of the Absolute perhaps somehow originally came into manifestation in the relative Universe. I can't remember in what book, so I'll have to find it and maybe even post the quote here. Like I said, something along those lines, so I want to double check what he said not paraphrased.

This is related to the Three Natures or Three Own Natures:

Parikalita, Paratantra, and Paranispana.

This seems to be related to what Namdrol has written in other threads about innate ignorance versus grasping ignorance (the former doesn't always include the latter).

I got your PM. Will have to reply later though.


Wisdom

Same with replying to your previous post too.


Best Regards
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alwayson
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by alwayson »

Lhug-Pa wrote: Even the Dalai Lama said something along the lines of...
Best Regards

Well if you read the Dalai Lama's "Middle Way" he does a Madhyamaka proof against any Uncaused Principle.......
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Lhug-Pa »

I'll have to look it up again like I said to get the proper context.

Basically, it seems that in Kabbalah, AIN (Soph) is The Absolute Truth (whether with or without Paranishpanna or Paramartha) and the Tree of Life itself (Paratantra) and the Klipoth spheres (Parikalita) are of Relative Truth.

Of course all of this would likely require much deeper analysis in relation to Madhyamaka and Yogachara philosophy in order to fully qualify these statements, intellectually anyhow.
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Dechen Norbu »

Lhug-Pa
You keep calling Gnostic to that SAW thing... although they say they are gnostics, there's nothing gnostic about it. The gnostic sects, extinguished long ago, have nothing in common with that new agish organization.
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Malcolm »

wisdom wrote: The foundational philosophy of Kabbalah is emanationism, but beyond that point it recognizes almost all the points of DO.
Let me put it to you this way: an XML scheme that is broken is not XML at all. A teaching (such as Dzogchen) is either completely in agreement with dependent origination from top to bottom, or it is not.

N
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Malcolm »

Lhug-Pa wrote:I'll have to look it up again like I said to get the proper context.

Basically, it seems that in Kabbalah, AIN (Soph) is The Absolute Truth (whether with or without Paranishpanna or Paramartha) and the Tree of Life itself (Paratantra) and the Klipoth spheres (Parikalita) are of Relative Truth.

Of course all of this would likely require much deeper analysis in relation to Madhyamaka and Yogachara philosophy in order to fully qualify these statements, intellectually anyhow.
No, this is not how the three own natures function. The non-existence of the imagined in the dependent is the perfected nature.

N
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Malcolm »

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Even the Dalai Lama said something along the lines of that perhaps some 'Atoms' or 'Particles' (Ain-Soph Atoms) of the Absolute perhaps somehow originally came into manifestation in the relative Universe. I can't remember in what book, so I'll have to find it and maybe even post the quote here. Like I said, something along those lines, so I want to double check what he said not paraphrased.

No, what HHDL was talking about was particles of space in the Kalacakra cosmology.

N
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Lhug-Pa »

In reflecting on it a bit, what I wrote in the Bönpo Rushen thread about possibly causing a split in the Sangha by defending my position regarding the teachings of Samael Aun Weor, was maybe a little silly of me to say; because I think that causing a split in the Sangha intentionally is really bad, and unintentionally is bad too, but could likely be purfified more easily if it were to ever happen unintentionally. So since such a thing is not my intention, I'll not refrain very much from speaking on the said topic like I'd intended. Will just have to make sure to keep my egos in check and do my best to not descend into arguements and such.
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wisdom
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by wisdom »

Namdrol wrote:
wisdom wrote: The foundational philosophy of Kabbalah is emanationism, but beyond that point it recognizes almost all the points of DO.
Let me put it to you this way: an XML scheme that is broken is not XML at all. A teaching (such as Dzogchen) is either completely in agreement with dependent origination from top to bottom, or it is not.

N
But that makes too much sense!

Thanks!
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Thug4lyfe »

superstitions are certainly more fun than boring ole Buddhism.
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Lhug-Pa
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Lhug-Pa »

Such as...?^^^ :shrug:


Gregkavarnos

I didn't see your recent post earlier. I do see your point though, even if I don't fully agree with it. :namaste:


Anyway, it might be a while now before I can get back to replying here more.... :juggling:
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by alwayson »

Dechen Norbu wrote:Lhug-Pa
You keep calling Gnostic to that SAW thing... although they say they are gnostics, there's nothing gnostic about it. The gnostic sects, extinguished long ago, have nothing in common with that new agish organization.

I noticed that too :applause:

Another irony is that they do not seem to realize that the main commonality between hermetiscism, Hinduism, Buddhism, alchemy and Kaballah is similar astrology.
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by Grigoris »

It's not surprising given they are all staring at the same stars!!!
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Re: End of the Kali-Yuga and the Mayan-Tibetan Connection

Post by alwayson »

It all ultimately comes from Greek astrology.

Even Hindu astrology is from the Greeks as demonstrated in the 2003 book The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism
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