Which Buddhist tradition has treated women the best?

[Mkoll]

There are students of Buddhadharma, and indeed women, who would see an appeal to Platonic idealism as the most discriminatory stance of all.

Can you expand on that, please?

[Simon E.]

Recognising the relatively real to be both 'real ' and relative, is a necessary prerequisite of compassion.

[Simon E.]

There are students of Buddhadharma, and indeed women, who would see an appeal to Platonic idealism as the most discriminatory stance of all.

Can you expand on that, please?

I will expand on it by an anecdote.
A friend in all sincerity said to a Nigerian man that she had just been introduced to, ' I no longer notice what colour people are '

He replied. ' I know your intention is good, but that is actually very hurtful '...

We start with honouring the relatively real.

[muni]

Recognising the relatively real to be both 'real ' and relative, is a necessary prerequisite of compassion.

This is important.
Neglecting the relative is making Compassion not possible. And without no freedom can be. Realizing the relative and the absolute are not two, is Bodhichitta.

Form = emptiness - emptiness = form.

[Kaccāni]

There are students of Buddhadharma, and indeed women, who would see an appeal to Platonic idealism as the most discriminatory stance of all.

Count me in on that. This stance almost unavoidably creates an idea-matter duality and starts arguments which of the two rules over which. And to structure them, subsequently some form of hierarchy is discussed. We were having them for some 2400 years now.

For me Buddhism means to go beyond such conceps. That implies there is no room for judgment of differences, what again means that there is acceptance of diversity, but without comparing evaluation and all better/worse/denial/discrimination that forms upon it.

Best wishes
Kc

[rory]

and where we are right now is: if you are born in a woman's body you have a couple of thousands of years of cultural patriarchy and misogyny to deal with in Buddhism. That's just the way it is; but the good new is with education and free dissemination of the Dharma via the internet, we don't have to rely on the institutions for Buddhism and we can develop a healthy understanding of the difference between the content and form. For me this meant I dropped my support of the vinaya and nunneries, I remember Faure saying that women instead should develop their own new ways.
gassho
Rory

[Ayu]

I think, nunneries should be supported more instead of less.
And I don't see this mysogyny in "Buddhism" but in Asia.

[Redfaery]

Definitely true!

[odysseus]

If Mr. Faure's only conclusion is that "Buddhism is in practice relentlessly misogynist" he honestly has no clue what he writes about. What complete crap he presents, man...

Have you read the book?
Have you even read a thorough review of it?

I won't bother, after reading just the little quote.

If your answers are "no" and "no", as I suspect, you have no right whatsoever to dismiss it as "complete crap".


Kim

It's easy to dismiss it as crap after knowing a tiny bit of Buddhism. I'm not saying this to separate between Buddhists and non-Buddhists, but when Buddhism is generally judged as misogynistic on a whole it's easy to dismiss it as crap.

[Fortyeightvows]

Buddhism is not nearly as sexist as many westerners may like to believe.

[TheSynergist]

I second the suggestion made that we should, if we are able, financially support nunneries. In Buddhist countries like Bhutan the nuns just don't get the same institutional/government support as the monks, so it's really critical that they get some other source of funding.

I also like that quote form Faure, that women's rights in Buddhism hasn't followed a linear development. Just being Buddhist won't make an individual or a society egalitarian --- If you're serious about equality, practice it. That the Theravada order of nuns originally existed, died off, and only recently (and controversially) has been revived is testimony to that effect.

[Fortyeightvows]

The Theravadan nun lineage don't continue because being a monastic was very difficult, even for men. Think- Thai forest tradition. The lifestyle of monastics in many of those theravadn countries was often very very hard and sometimes dangerous. The nuns lineage not continuing had much less to do with oppression or sexism and more to do with the realities of daily monastic life.
I have heard this from several theravadn monks from several countries .

If there is opposition to it today, then that's another thing.

[Redfaery]

Sadly, I think the fact that nun lineages became extinct because Theravadan monastic life is so rigorous is not really a valid excuse. If it were really that tough, why has it survived at all? Women are just as capable of living in austere conditions as men are...just look at Christian nuns today! There are far more nuns than monks in the Roman Catholic church.

[Dan74]

The Theravadan nun lineage don't continue because being a monastic was very difficult, even for men. Think- Thai forest tradition. The lifestyle of monastics in many of those theravadn countries was often very very hard and sometimes dangerous. The nuns lineage not continuing had much less to do with oppression or sexism and more to do with the realities of daily monastic life.
I have heard this from several theravadn monks from several countries .

If there is opposition to it today, then that's another thing.

I think this may be another of those sexist myths that get perpetuated in cultures with this problem. As far as I know it was wars and invasions that were instrumental in extinction of nun lineages and probably institutionalised sexism didn't help. In Thailand, I understand, there is still a strong belief in impurity of menstrual blood and its incompatibility with the purity of the robes.

[Luke]

Any tradition which leads to Enlightment is good to all beings, because all enlightned beings are good to all.

Perhaps, but there are plenty of stories of people who were regarded as "enlightened" by their followers but who acted very badly (but I won't go into this here).

Luke, I respectfully doubt your intentions with such topic because I read all your posts here and failed to understand for real your point.

That's fine. You are free to think whatever you like. I do admit that I am an unusual person.

I hope we do not disrespect any tradition if we judge them wrongly by our wrong views saying this or that tradition was "not good to/for women".

I understand your concern, but I don't think anybody has said anything horribly disrespectful in this thread yet. I just see a lot of honesty.

Well, Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche was the first Tibetan master to fully ordain western women as lamas.
So I believe this counts as a three pointer for Nyingma Order, right.

That's great.

[Kim O'Hara]

An idle thought: did any of you notice any schools or centres celebrating International Women's Day in any way?
I searched http://www.internationalwomensday.com/esearch.asp for "Buddhism" and got no results, then for "dharma" and got one: http://www.internationalwomensday.com/l ... P7VmktG7mE


Kim

[plwk]

Samples of celebrating and mentioning on this year's International Women's Day: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

[Kim O'Hara]

Samples of celebrating and mentioning on this year's International Women's Day: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Kim

[Zhen Li]

So are any women the heads or hold top positions in either Sakya or Nyingma. I pointed out that in modern Japan there is equal opportunity at the entry running a temple level, but once it comes to top power positions, it's all male.

I'd say the same for Fo Guang Shan, yes they have plenty of nuns and managers, but the top positions go to males. Isn't Huifeng a Dean now? And what about City of 10,000 Buddhas it's Ven. Heng Sure. Ven Cheng Yen of the Tzu Chi foundation runs a big org and Kosho Niwano are 2 modern powerful Buddhist women.
gassho
Rory

It's an old post, but I must correct some lies, though admittedly this information is hard to get in English, and it is also hard for me to get.

All top positions at FGS are elected by the monastics every six years. The abbots and deputy abbots are nominated from among xiushi level monastics and elected by xueshi level monastics and above, probably well over 90% of whom are women. There have been plenty of deputy abbesses before, including Vens. Cirong, Yikong, Yihua, Cihui, Cizhuang, and Cijia and there will continue to be. All of the abbots of the HQ have so far been male, and more than capable and more qualified than anyone could ask for. However, there's no reason why an equally capable and qualified female could not also be elected in the same way. But the question of someone's sex clearly isn't a high priority among monastics at FGS, otherwise the overwhelmingly female electorate would not keep electing males. The spirit of looking beyond dualities and petty differences as the way you are born, and seeing that in practicing Dharma, and especially in robes when you all look the same regardless of sex, I think is the spirit that I feel when I am at Fo Guang Shan.

Chandler claims in his book on FGS that some male monastics in the past have felt like women have too much of a voice at Fo Guang Shan, and haven't had their distinct requirements as males paid attention to. However, I have no experience regarding that, and from my lay perspective I cannot see it as an issue. The question of which tradition is treating women the best, in my opinion, is the question of which tradition, while paying heed to the practical requirements of each sex, in most other regards doesn't pay heed to the fact that one is male or female.

[YesheDronmar]

As a woman (am I the only woman in this thread?)

I'm here too, Rory, belated, but I'm here, another woman on the path (no nappies in sight either).