mental illness and Buddhism

[Luca123]

This would mean that modern psychiatry and medicine are more appropriate and powerful in dealing with physical and mental suffering?

Appropriate means for appropriate ends. Buddhism addresses a more fundamental kind of suffering and the basic cause of suffering in a more fundamental way.

I think metal illnesses (so called) are probably the most intense kind of mental suffering and I do not see them treated by Buddhist monks at all
So far, the best and only combination of treatments for schizophrenia is here
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... ndex.shtml
Buddhism is not in the list

[Luca123]

Buddhist meditation techniques are now starting to be employed by psychologists for this very reason: they work under these circumstances.

Maybe there is some truth in this, but why in the last 2500 years all the Buddhist monks have been unable or unwilling to help people with mental problems?
I have never seen a Buddhist monk clinic for schizophrenic people

The unspoken sense of this post I read as "Buddism doesn't care about mentally ill people" ? That claim would not be true.
Schizophrenia and paranoia for example are considered to be a disturbance in the internal subtle winds in the body-mind construction. There are stories about recovering from this by certain dharma practices.
But it is a subject for a talk between teacher & student - not good for annonymous advices on internet.

Please do not put in my mouth words I have never uttered.
Here is an analysis of people with schizophrenia in Thai: http://www.pophealthmetrics.com/content/8/1/24 Please note that they are treated in hospitals not in temples

[Ayu]

This would mean that modern psychiatry and medicine are more appropriate and powerful in dealing with physical and mental suffering?

Appropriate means for appropriate ends. Buddhism addresses a more fundamental kind of suffering and the basic cause of suffering in a more fundamental way.

I think metal illnesses (so called) are probably the most intense kind of mental suffering and I do not see them treated by Buddhist monks at all
So far, the best and only combination of treatments for schizophrenia is here
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... ndex.shtml
Buddhism is not in the list

Hello Luca123,

please consider this is not a forum on conventional medicine but about Mahayana Buddhism. You've been given examples and experiences, that contradict your claim. You stated your view and there is no need to repeat it again and again. Maybe now it's time to read, what other persons had to tell.

[Parayana]

I don't think I stated in my post that Buddhist temples are the best place to treat my Schizophrenia. With serious mental illness pharmaceutical intervention is necessary and hospitalisation may be needed. What I'm saying is that Buddhist practice can augment Psychiatric treatment. Hope that clarifies my point of view.

[Luca123]

Hello Luca123,

please consider this is not a forum on conventional medicine but about Mahayana Buddhism. You've been given examples and experiences, that contradict your claim. You stated your view and there is no need to repeat it again and again. Maybe now it's time to read, what other persons had to tell.

None of the experiences that have been written here (if true) contradicts what I am saying
Today, schizophrenia is treated by conventional medicine and pharma, not by Buddhism meditation
I am not saying Buddhism meditation can not help in some cases, but it is not the main cure for schizophrenia
I hope you will agree

[Luca123]

I don't think I stated in my post that Buddhist temples are the best place to treat my Schizophrenia. With serious mental illness pharmaceutical intervention is necessary and hospitalisation may be needed. What I'm saying is that Buddhist practice can augment Psychiatric treatment. Hope that clarifies my point of view.

I agree

[Ayu]

Hello Luca123,

please consider this is not a forum on conventional medicine but about Mahayana Buddhism. You've been given examples and experiences, that contradict your claim. You stated your view and there is no need to repeat it again and again. Maybe now it's time to read, what other persons had to tell.

None of the experiences that have been written here (if true) contradicts what I am saying
Today, schizophrenia is treated by conventional medicine and pharma, not by Buddhism meditation
I am not saying Buddhism meditation can not help in some cases, but it is not the main cure for schizophrenia
I hope you will agree

This topic is not about buddhism as main cure for schizophrenia. It is about in which ways buddhism is helpful. (Edit: and about the buddhist view on mental illnesses.) Conventional medicine doesn't know much about that. They are just starting to explore that.

[Jesse]

Certain practices from buddhism are extreamly useful for mental illness. Mindfulness being one of them. If a person can reach the realization in meditation that we are not our thoughts and that we can passively observe them without being affected by them, a person with depression, psychosis or obsessive thoughts can use this practice to free themselves from afflictions caused by negative thoughts.

It's not that simple of course, a person has to be mentally healthy enough to actually use this practice to begin with. So I agree medical intervention is a first step, after that Buddhism contains many teachings that not only help, but can potentially cure their illnesses eventually, or at least reduce their suffering drastically.

Buddhists have been studying the mind for centuries, it's sort of egotistical to think that their grasp of it is any less than western psychology.

[Parayana]

Secular mindfulness is being increasingly used by community psychiatric teams by the NHS in the UK in the treatment of a variety of conditions.

[omnifriend]

at spirit rock in California a lot of the dhamma teachers are learning somatic experience therapy, which is a way to relieve trauma stored in the body, which can help alleviate the symptoms of psychosis.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Hello Luca123,

please consider this is not a forum on conventional medicine but about Mahayana Buddhism. You've been given examples and experiences, that contradict your claim. You stated your view and there is no need to repeat it again and again. Maybe now it's time to read, what other persons had to tell.

None of the experiences that have been written here (if true) contradicts what I am saying
Today, schizophrenia is treated by conventional medicine and pharma, not by Buddhism meditation
I am not saying Buddhism meditation can not help in some cases, but it is not the main cure for schizophrenia
I hope you will agree

There is no 'cure' for schizophrenia at all. Prior to what we do today (mostly medicating them) we either ( good scenario) had a kind of community care for schizophrenics, or (worse scenario) locked them up away from the public. There are many bad things one can say about treating with medication, but the fact is that for some severe disorders they are the difference between being functional and not.

Also, you are mildly incorrect, in that the current trend is towards different therapies (some.of which are Buddhist influence) as support for medication. In general, the field seems to agree that treatment with both medication and supportive therapy is best.

There really isn't much data yet on treatments for schizophrenia that aren't biological yet, so your point.is a bit misleading.

[Luca123]

We are saying the same thing
My point being that since Buddhism has mapped the human mind for the past 2500 years, it should have given already centuries ago some powerful cure for mental illneses like schizophrenia, while it does not
The fact is that patients today are treated using meds, not Buddhism
The point that there are *some* therapies that are loosely based on Buddhism does not hange what I am saying, there is no cure for schizophrenia coming from Buddhism, which is strange since Buddhism has mapped the human mind for centuries

[Ayu]

We are saying the same thing
My point being that since Buddhism has mapped the human mind for the past 2500 years, it should have given already centuries ago some powerful cure for mental illneses like schizophrenia, while it does not
The fact is that patients today are treated using meds, not Buddhism
The point that there are *some* therapies that are loosely based on Buddhism does not hange what I am saying, there is no cure for schizophrenia coming from Buddhism, which is strange since Buddhism has mapped the human mind for centuries

You talk as if you knew every single hospital in this world and every of the 84000 teachings of the Buddha.

I read it often, there were people cured from mental illnesses. You could find it with the search function of DW.

Why is this point so important for you?

[Johnny Dangerous]

We are saying the same thing
My point being that since Buddhism has mapped the human mind for the past 2500 years, it should have given already centuries ago some powerful cure for mental illneses like schizophrenia, while it does not
The fact is that patients today are treated using meds, not Buddhism
The point that there are *some* therapies that are loosely based on Buddhism does not hange what I am saying, there is no cure for schizophrenia coming from Buddhism, which is strange since Buddhism has mapped the human mind for centuries

Why? It hasn't been able to eliminate disease either, and doesn't claim to. I think you don't understand how Buddhism generally views severe mental illness - let me give you a (very) brief explanation:

Basically, if someone is unable to be helped by Buddhist methods, well, they are beyond the ability to practice Dharma, and do not have what's termed a "precious human life"..i.e. a life where Dharma practice is truly possible. It is acknowledged in every Buddhist tradition I know that some people are presently beyond the reach of Dharma practice, and cannot practice in the present lifetime it for a variety of reasons. For these people the best that can be hoped for is management of their conditions which alleviates their suffering as much as is possible, and for practitioners to create the aspiration that one day they develop the causes to be able to make use of Dharma teachings. This is not some prejudice, but an acknowledgement of reality - much in the same way that someone in the middle of a war zone is at a diminished capacity to practice Dharma...it is about circumstances which make practice possible, and those that make it not possible.

That said, there are some severely mentally ill people that make use of and benefit from Dharma-derived therapies anyway, and I assume this has always been so. These people are not beyond the range of being able to practice Dharma.

I am not sure what you agenda is here, but you don't seem to actually know a thing about the Buddhist view of mental illness, and if you are here to somehow "prove" Buddhism is deficient in some way, that's not the what the forum is for, and it is against the ToS. So, it'd be best if you actually make a point, rather than building up a straw man that is the direct result of not understanding Buddhist explanations of mental illness.

I also think you might be being a bit naive about how "successful" current treatments are for severe disorders, they are a band-aid at best. And this is coming from someone who plans to get a psychology degree...severe mental illness is not an area seen as a field full of great successes.

[Natan]

Recently I was listening to some talks by a respected Buddhist teacher (who isn't important for this particular discussion) and I noticed that he kept throwing the word 'depression' around a lot. He was basically implying that depression is not a mental illness, but in fact something we have control over. We develop depression because of our self-centric mind and must employ the dharma to overcome it.

Is it just me, or is that a bit unrealistic in thinking? I am taking it from the point of view that he believes serious clinical depression arises from bad karma, as well as the lack of will power coming from a selfish nature.

So when I hear other teachers speak about depression and anxiety and other forms of mental illness from now on, should I be perceiving it the way this teacher has presented it? If so, what about people who suffer from schizophrenia, or who are born with a mental disability? Is this to say that they have bad karma too, and that it is a matter of mere will power to overcome their obstacles? Honestly, I am saying the last line in jest. Obviously, those born with those mental illnesses, depending upon the severity of them, are lucky if they even hear the name of Buddha in this life time, let alone are able to study the dharma.

So I guess the more appropriate question would be, do you think this teacher is literally referring to a clinical form of depression and other associated mental illnesses, or is he throwing the word around to mean 'sad'? Because there's a huge difference if that is the case. However, I can't help but think he is referring to clinical depression, which is rather close-minded and ignorant if that is the case.

Serious depression and suicides runs in my family. Meds don't work. Psychology is a joke. Buddhadhara is the cure. I swear. To experience an indefatigable bliss is so mind changing. Depression is a bridge to the rainbow body. Hopelessness is the wind blowing you into the nirvana land. Samsara is changeable. This suffering mutable. But bliss is unchanging truth.

[Luca123]

Basically, if someone is unable to be helped by Buddhist methods, well, they are beyond the ability to practice Dharma, and do not have what's termed a "precious human life"..

I am not here to prove or disprove anything but monks who are deeply knowledge into the Dhamma should be able to help the patients, but apparently they can not or they do not want or they do not have time , I do not know

[Johnny Dangerous]

Basically, if someone is unable to be helped by Buddhist methods, well, they are beyond the ability to practice Dharma, and do not have what's termed a "precious human life"..

I am not here to prove or disprove anything but monks who are deeply knowledge into the Dhamma should be able to help the patients, but apparently they can not or they do not want or they do not have time , I do not know

I put a basic Buddhist PoV on the subject as I understand it out there, and why some patients are presently beyond the help of Dharma practice.. if specific monks somewhere are not helping specific people, I don't know what to say about that, as I am not there, and don't know the situation. If you want to refute anything I said, that's fine too..but please do that instead of repeating the same things.

People have to be ripe for Dharma practice to benefit from it, if they are not then they are better off with conventional treatment - this is my understanding at least.

If some monks somewhere are ostracizing or not caring for mentally ill people, personally I don't agree with that.

[Luca123]

Buddhadhara is the cure. I swear.

I hate to repeat myself but.. then why isnt Buddhadhara used in mental hospitals? Not even in Buddhist countries like Thai or Sri Lanka

[Johnny Dangerous]

Buddhadhara is the cure. I swear.

I hate to repeat myself but.. then why isnt Buddhadhara used in mental hospitals? Not even in Buddhist countries like Thai or Sri Lanka

This has already been answered by others, this is your last warning to either engage in the conversation, or be treated as if youa re trolling - violating the ToS.

[Caodemarte]

"I am not here to prove or disprove anything but monks who are deeply knowledge into the Dhamma should be able to help the patients, but apparently they cannot ...." Why should be able to? Should biochemists also be able to advise you on your meditation practice? Do you criticize their knowledge of biochemistry if they cannot set your broken leg? This is a deeply superstitious view at best.