23rd Minor Precept

[matthewmartin]

23. (title elided because it doesn't match up the these paragraphs)

After my passing, if a disciple should, with a wholesome mind, wish to receive the Bodhisattva precepts, he may make a vow to do so before the images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and practice repentance before these images for seven days. If he then experiences a vision, he has received the precepts. If he does not, he should continue doing so for fourteen days, twenty-one days, or even a whole year, seeking to witness an auspicious sign. After witnessing such a sign, he could, in front of images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, formally receive the precepts. If he has not witnessed such a sign, although he may have accepted the precepts before the Buddha images, he has not actually received the precepts.

However, the witnessing of auspicious signs is not necessary if the disciple receives the precepts directly from a Dharma Master who has himself received the precepts. Why is this so? It is because this is a case of transmission from Master to Master and therefore all that is required is a mind of utter sincerity and respect on the part of the disciple.

If, within a radius of some three hundred fifty miles, a disciple cannot find a Master capable of conferring the Bodhisattva precepts, he may seek to receive them in front of Buddha or Bodhisattva images. However, he must witness an auspicious sign.

Does this imply that a sole practitioner of Buddhism can ordain without tracking the minimum number of other previously ordained monks? And what are the sort of signs one is looking for? I was sort of surprised to see this, since normally institutions like to keep tight control of membership. Does this sort of thing happen in modern times?

[Nicholas Weeks]

Study the 22nd precept which deals with arrogant new bodhisattvas looking down on a guru because he is poor or dirty of body etc. The 23rd flips it and applies to an arrogant, but well-studied guru who looks down on a new bodhisattva for similar reasons.
The passage about seeking a confirming vision (which is not common, now or long ago) is a reason for both sorts of prideful types - disciple & guru - to not judge by appearances. Both should keep in mind that the person in front of them may be just such a rare & very sublime person who had a vision of a Buddha blessing them on the head. That is one example of the type of vision, according to Elder Master Hui Seng.

[Konchog1]

This passage is about the Bodhisattva vows, not the Monastic vows.

[DGA]

This passage is abohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_Precepts#Brahma_Net_Sutraut the Bodhisattva vows, not the Monastic vows.

And?

The Brahma Net precepts are used for purposes of ordination in East Asia. Saicho (Dengyo Daishi) was the first to institute this tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattv ... _Net_Sutra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saicho

[Astus]

The Brahma Net precepts are used for purposes of ordination in East Asia.

I was sort of surprised to see this, since normally institutions like to keep tight control of membership.

It is used for such ordinations only in Japanese schools (and the Taego order?). And I presume no school there would accept self-ordination. At the same time, this feature of the bodhisattva vows allowed everyone to take them freely and thus helped establishing the bodhisattva precepts throughout China and related cultures. However, unlike in Japan, taking only the bodhisattva precepts does not confer any special rights or position.

[DGA]

The Brahma Net precepts are used for purposes of ordination in East Asia.

I was sort of surprised to see this, since normally institutions like to keep tight control of membership.

It is used for such ordinations only in Japanese schools (and the Taego order?). And I presume no school there would accept self-ordination. .

Yes, that's so. My point was not that this was a universal or pan-Buddhist phenomenon, but that it is something that does happen: which means the OP is not out of line in bringing up the question of ordination.

[matthewmartin]

Thanks all! That makes more sense now.

And in case anyone finds this thread, there is another on the same/similar question (self ordination and the Brahma Net Sutra).

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4997

[Konchog1]

This passage is abohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_Precepts#Brahma_Net_Sutraut the Bodhisattva vows, not the Monastic vows.

And?

The Brahma Net precepts are used for purposes of ordination in East Asia. Saicho (Dengyo Daishi) was the first to institute this tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattv ... _Net_Sutra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saicho

You seem to have assumed that I identified OP's quote as coming from the Brahma Net Sutra. That is a false assumption.