Begging, Panhandling & 8th Major Precept (Brahma Net Sutra)

[matthewmartin]

8. ... A Bodhisattva should give to those who come to him all that they need. If, out of malice or anger, he instead refuses to give to the poor even a coin, a needle, or a blade of grass, or refuses to say a verse or a stanza to those who request the Dharma, scolding and insulting them, it is a parājika sin

How to do with beggars and panhandlers? They aren't sramana beggars, generally they are people with addiction problems and at the very least, serious money problems.

Giving money to the (most likely) alcoholic beggars seems to violate the precept on not giving directly or indirectly people the means to drink alcohol (precept #5 on not selling alcohol)

So what are people doing with respect to beggars now-a-days?

And panhandling is in a legal gray area-- in the US is is legal, but localities keep passing laws, issuing PSAs, etc to regulate with the aim of stamping it out. In my jurisdiction giving seems to be legal, but depending on how the beggar solicited, his actions may have been illegal, which kind of calls into question the ethics of participating in a criminal contract where only the worse off person could face prosecution.

[Matt J]

I give when I can. I think it is up to us to be generous, and not worry about where the gift goes.

[Seishin]

Give to homeless shelters.

Gassho
Seishin

[Konchog1]

A Bodhisattva should give to those who come to him all that they need. If, out of malice or anger, he instead refuses to give to the poor even a coin, a needle, or a blade of grass, or refuses to say a verse or a stanza to those who request the Dharma, scolding and insulting them, it is a parājika sin

[Lindama]

If I am able and am moved, I have given. It is none of my business beyond that. The rest is thinking and analyzing. Who worries about precepts?

[Motova]

I walk by homeless people everyday walking to school.

I used to give money, but after I saw one smoking a joint on Bay Street I refuse to fuel their addictions.

I just give out food now. Once I get a handle on my debt and get a job, I might buy some tooth brushes and paste in bulk and hand them out. Perhaps some mittens and hats in the winter.

Unfortunately a lot are crazy or drug addicts.

The only time I give money is when it's a woman.

[Lindama]

I have given money to ppl who I imagine would buy booze or drugs because they asked for help in SFO. Who am I to judge and how do I know ... there is no compassion in judging. I have already placed myself above others. When I made such a donation, it has come spontaneously from the heart. I was actually a bit shocked that I didn't carry any judgement towards the person and what they would do with the money, so I learned something too. can't make that happen.

Reminds me of the time long ago, we picked up an older native American couple hitchhiking in Idaho ... they were in pretty bad shape. We drove them a few hours out of the way to get the women to a treatment facility. Along the way, we stopped to get her a bottle of liquor... to keep her out of seizure. None of it was planned, we just did the next thing. There is nothing but to offer when we can, if we can. It completely altered our day, but who cared?

I am not for one minute suggesting that we should give to everyone we encounter on the street!

[Zhen Li]

You really have to understand that there's a distinction in action between the deeds of any Buddhist aiming for nirvana, and the deeds of a Bodhisattva. For a Bodhisattva, the precepts act as a guide for achieving the Perfections. Surely most who hold the Bodhisattva vows must be defeated (parajika) daily, but they still trudge on. When it comes to a Bodhisattva's deeds, you can't think too deeply about following the precepts, because surely then you'll miss the point.

Try making sense of the Vessantara Jataka using ordinary notions of morality for instance. It just doesn't work.

[matthewmartin]

Thanks all for the ideas!

re: precepts, who cares
There's 84000 doors to the dharma. Mine involves reading precepts, looking for ones that can be followed, that are of use to follow.

re: not (over) thinking
Why not think? I'm not in an institution. At the office, the boss says jump, I jump, I don't over think it and ask how high. Outside the office, I have the leisure to think.

[kirtu]

8. ... A Bodhisattva should give to those who come to him all that they need. If, out of malice or anger, he instead refuses to give to the poor even a coin, a needle, or a blade of grass, or refuses to say a verse or a stanza to those who request the Dharma, scolding and insulting them, it is a parājika sin

How to do with beggars and panhandlers? They aren't sramana beggars, generally they are people with addiction problems and at the very least, serious money problems.

Panhandling is not a grey area in many places - poverty has been criminalized in many places (really). However it is not the job of a Bodhisattva to try to to judge people on their merits. Many, many people in the US are undergoing extreme hardship due to the US created Second Great Depression (most people in Western and Central Europe have recovered, Southern Europe has been flushed down the toilet - you have to go to Southern Europe nowadays to find people as poverty stricken as Americans).

Even if people have drug and alcohol issues (and some people forced to beg do not) you don't know their actual reactions. I have given food and money many times to people who really needed it. Needs are also various. Outside a kind of dollar store in DC, just north of Dupont Circle, a woman in rags begged me to buy a toy tea set for her little daughter. This was highly unusual. I was quite well off at the time though and this would cost < $20 so I did it. When I came back out she hugged it and thanked me and sat down. I never saw her again. It is unusual for me to never see regular homeless people in that area again (I had seen her a few times over the years). Perhaps she was dying and wished to give her daughter a toy. Perhaps it was a fantasy. But whatever the reason, she became quite happy as a result. My Sakya lama stressed during bodhisattva teachings that Bodhisattvas give to make other people happy as an initial practice. As you have noted this can become complex. But secondarily, Bodhisattvas give in order to alleviate material and spiritual want and ultimately to gather students. I often tried to help people find jobs I had seen advertised even though this could get complex.

Please do not use your discernment to cut yourself off from people. Have you ever been to San Francisco? Many homeless people there are suffering from obvious drug problems. And they have been abandoned by others. It is difficult to even be near some people. I was there for a conference 2+ yrs ago - went into a Starbucks and a demon possessed person sat down near me (to be clear he was possessed with meth). He wasn't open and receptive to anything positive and did buy a coffee himself (he had been begging outside for some time). Another person and I together bought him another coffee as the shop basically kicked him out. If we claim to be Bodhisattvas we have to at least try to not throw people away.

Kirt

[greentara]

kirtu, I really appreciated your answer, 'We can't throw people away and we can't be judge and jury'
We also can't give everytime someone asks or demands....so sometimes we do and sometimes not, its just the way it is.
Indeed alot of begging and street crime stems from poverty. The gulf between rich and poor is ever widening and there's some very serious social issues here. Its happening right under our noses, most of us are aware of it and powerless and we can't deny the change thats sweeping over the globe.

[Zhen Li]

Well, giving to panhandlers isn't technically dāna, but it's definitely karuna.

What fundamentally distinguishes ourselves and others?

When do we give to ourselves? Always? Or when we use proper discernment to know that to not give is not balanced and not the middle way.

All method-perfections must be balanced with wisdom. If we have confidence that the panhandler won't abuse a donation, there's no excuse for holding back. Just like if you're confident that you need to eat with your own mouth, you eat.

[muni]

great posts, reminding all: "there is no compassion in judging"

[Malcolm]

If we have confidence that the panhandler won't abuse a donation, there's no excuse for holding back. Just like if you're confident that you need to eat with your own mouth, you eat.

Āryadeva passed a blind woman on the road. Hearing him coming she begged him for one of his eyes. He obliged, and she promptly popped the eye in her mouth, and swallowed it with satisfaction. In that moment, Āryadeva suffered a pang of regret, because of course he had intended the women use it for her own sight. Because of his pang of regret, he lost the chance to have his eye miraculously restored. This is why one of his nicknames is Ekacakṣu, "One eye".

[Benten]

My sister was homeles for years. Pretty much every penny that she and the people she hung out with went to drugs or alcohol. There was plenty of places in town to get free clothes and food, including fast food and grocery dumpters. They would get the guy with out a leg to take off his fake leg and stand with crutches on the freeway and fly a sign for food or what ever. He would make 70$ in less than an hour, and quit. Then off to the local hotel where the maids left the doors open, shower watch HBO and drink up 70$. If some one with a key came to the door locked from the inside, they would just leave to another room while the vacationer went to the office about the locked room.

I think its called idiot compassion to give them money.