Unreality of Thoughts

[muni]

Cups don't have emptiness, they are empty, whether they are full of water or air.

Should say yes. As no any condition is changing its very nature.

[Grigoris]

[22,42] Furthermore, these sixteen kinds of emptiness are also taught:
[22,43] 1) The emptiness of the outer means that the six outer sense-sources
are each empty of their own identity.
[22.44] 2) That the six inner sense-sources are similarly empty is the
emptiness of the inner.
[2z,45] 3) That both the outer and inner sense-sources are empty is the
emptiness of the outer and the inner. These three demonstrate that
all phenomena comprising the outer and inner have no proven
identity.
[22,46] 4) 'Enormous' refers to the ten directions and therefore signifies
vastness, since they pervade everywhere. That these directions are
devoid of their own identities is called emptiness of the enormity in
order to eliminate the notion of believing that directions are
enormous.
[22,47] 5) 'Absence of beginning and end' refers to samsara that is perceived
as manifold world systems. That samsara is empty of its
own identity is the emptiness of the absence of beginning and end. It
is taught to eliminate attachment to and fear of samsara.
[22,48] 6) The emptiness of the conditioned means that the three realms
comprised of conditioned things that arise, dwell and cease are
each empty of their own identity.
[22,49] 7) The emptiness of the unconditioned means that all unconditioned
phenomena - including space that is devoid of arising and ceasing
- are each empty of their own identity.
[n,sol This demonstrates that all phenomena included within the conditioned
and the unconditioned are devoid of identity.
[22,5!] 8) 'Emptiness' means that all phenomena are by nature devoid of
an identity. The emptiness of emptiness means that emptiness is
also empty of its own identity.
[22,52] 9) 'Transcending limitations' refers to whatever is devoid of
eternalism, nihilism and other such limitations. That it is also
empty of its own identity is the emptiness of transcending limitations.
[22,53] 10) The identity of all conditioned and unconditioned phenomena
is not created by anyone, and is therefore called their individual
nature. That it is also empty of its own identity is the emptiness of
nature.
[22,54]11) Not to focus on the three times is called 'nonfocus'. That it is
empty of its own identity is the emptiness of nonfocus.
[22,55] 12) 'Ultimate' refers both to suchness, the supreme object of
realization, and to nirvana, the supreme object of attainment.
That they are empty of their own identity is the emptiness of the
ultimate.
[22,56] 13) Not to reject or abandon any phenomenon is called 'nonrejection'.
That it is also empty of its own identity is the emptiness of
nonrejection.
[22,57] 14) That all things arising from conditions are devoid of a
continuous and congregated substance is called 'substanceless identity'.
That this is also empty of its own identity is the emptiness of
substanceless identity.
[22,58] These seven [8-14] are taught to stop the clinging to an antidote.
Respectively, they are taught for the sake of understanding that
emptiness, transcending limitations, nature, nonfocus, the ultimate,
nonrejection and substanceless identity have no proven existence
whatsoever. Having understood this, one realizes the absence of
constructs after every type of conceptual focus that clings to each
of them has fallen away.
[22,59] 15) Emptiness of all phenomena means that all conditioned and
unconditioned phenomena, from form up to omniscience, are
empty of their own identity. In short, this is taught, condensing
the meaning of all the above, by demonstrating that no knowable
object exists that is not empty.
[22,6o) 16) 'Individual characteristics' refers to the labels used to designate
all these phenomena as conditioned or unconditioned, such as
possessing form and so forth, or for instance, the heat of fire or
the wetness of water and so forth. Based on their different individual
characteristics, one determines phenomena to be such and
such. That they are devoid of their identity is the emptiness of individual
characteristics. This is not an instance of phenomena being
rendered empty by a discrete antidote, but rather it is taught in
order to bring about the understanding that whatever appears as
such is, itself, emptiness by its very nature.

Gateway to Knowledge Vol 3 - Jamgon Mipham Rinpoche, trans. Kathy Morri and Erik Pema K

[Andrew108]

All of these emptinesses are the same. Just empty of own identity. It is good to remember that dharmas are not static. They are dynamic and ever changing. So you can never pinpoint emptiness. And that dharmas are always changing is because they have no own identity. So you can see that in practice dependent origination interdependence is really all that the concept of emptiness is pointing to.

The problem is that students want to find emptiness or at least experience it. But it is impossible to experience emptiness because when you do you are experiencing a 'something' called absence or emptiness. A cup that seems solid is changing from one moment to the next. That change is coming about because of interdependence. That interdependence is suggestive of a lack of own identity. There is no room for emptiness. It's a concept about interdependence and the fact or law that dharmas have no own identity.

[Grigoris]

So why don't you tell us what 7) has to do with dependent origination?

[muni]

Andrew:

The problem is that students want to find emptiness or at least experience it. But it is impossible to experience emptiness because when you do you are experiencing a 'something' called absence or emptiness.

Apologize my simple words, that "students" is a thought/cloud wanting to experience/find the sky.

In "experience emptiness” there is the experiencer - the experience indivisible = Indivisibility phenomena-awareness.
There is no object “ absence/emptiness” experienced.

This need guidance-pointing.

o o

[Andrew108]

So why don't you tell us what 7) has to do with dependent origination?

Number 7 is correcting the view that something that is unconditioned can also have an identity. But then in some cases space is seen as being dependently originated in that it depends on a boundary. In other cases where space is seen as a dimension then this too is seen as compounded. Take a look at the following Sutta which also identifies two types of practitioner and the knowledge a stream enterer has:

Dhatu Sutta: Properties

At Savatthi. "Monks, the earth property is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The liquid property... The fire property... The wind property... The space property... The consciousness property is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

[muni]

Andrew is student from Master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche ?
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.be/s ... 20Rinpoche" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Malcolm]

Andrew is student from Master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche ?

He is a Johnny come lately. And I think he would be rather surprised at ChNN's opinion of the theory of evolution [in other words, he does not believe it].

[Andrew108]

Andrew is student from Master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche ?

He is a Johnny come lately. And I think he would be rather surprised at ChNN's opinion of the theory of evolution [in other words, he does not believe it].

I think you have misunderstood. It is not necessary to accept everything the teacher says. If a student does this then they are just being passive. The only way the teachings work is if the student uses their own discernment. But there are those faith types and they accept what the teacher says without really thinking it through. It's o.k for them. You should realise that I am not a Tibetan, I'm not the faith type, and I don't feel the need to live in a Buddhist landscape.

[Malcolm]

Andrew is student from Master Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche ?

He is a Johnny come lately. And I think he would be rather surprised at ChNN's opinion of the theory of evolution [in other words, he does not believe it].

I think you have misunderstood. It is not necessary to accept everything the teacher says. If a student does this then they are just being passive. The only way the teachings work is if the student uses their own discernment. But there are those faith types and they accept what the teacher says without really thinking it through. It's o.k for them. You should realise that I am not a Tibetan, I'm not the faith type, and I don't feel the need to live in a Buddhist landscape.

As I pointed out to you before, you are a Humpty Dumpty.

[Grigoris]

So why don't you tell us what 7) has to do with dependent origination?

Number 7 is correcting the view that something that is unconditioned can also have an identity. But then in some cases space is seen as being dependently originated in that it depends on a boundary. In other cases where space is seen as a dimension then this too is seen as compounded. Take a look at the following Sutta which also identifies two types of practitioner and the knowledge a stream enterer has:

Dhatu Sutta: Properties

At Savatthi. "Monks, the earth property is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The liquid property... The fire property... The wind property... The space property... The consciousness property is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

This is a Shravakayana teaching, we are discussing a Mahayana view. A view which basically says that something can be empty, but not dependently arisen.

7) The emptiness of the unconditioned means that all unconditioned
phenomena - including space that is devoid of arising and ceasing
- are each empty of their own identity.

It is saying that space, which is NOT dependently arisen, is nonetheless empty of identity.

So (and this is the fourth time I am saying this, and have shown it again and again with examples) sunyata is not JUST a synonym for dependently arisen, since #7 is a clear example of an unconditioned phenomenon that is empty and yet not dependently arisen.

Like it or lump it. If you continue to ignore it though, I will consider it trolling. This is, after all "A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism".

[krodha]

The problem is that students want to find emptiness or at least experience it. But it is impossible to experience emptiness because when you do you are experiencing a 'something' called absence or emptiness. A cup that seems solid is changing from one moment to the next. That change is coming about because of interdependence. That interdependence is suggestive of a lack of own identity. There is no room for emptiness. It's a concept about interdependence and the fact or law that dharmas have no own identity.

Emptiness (as in an absence of identity) can absolutely be directly recognized in an experiential sense. A cup that is allegedly changing from one moment to the next is not that lack of identity, but rather is an abstractive byproduct of that principle. Change is also empty, as time and the dharmins which would allegedly change (while enduring in time) cannot be found when sought.

[Andrew108]

@ Sherab. I'm not trolling when I post suttas. You can also see that Kalachakra talks about 'space particles'. The point is that emptiness isn't a thing or even a property. It is a concept about lack of own identity. In the same way that equality isn't a thing but a concept concerning the relatedness of one thing with another.

I think you have misunderstood the quotes you have posted and it seems to me that you think emptiness is something.

[Grigoris]

I think you have misunderstood the quotes you have posted and it seems to me that you think emptiness is something.

Nope.

[Andrew108]

The problem is that students want to find emptiness or at least experience it. But it is impossible to experience emptiness because when you do you are experiencing a 'something' called absence or emptiness. A cup that seems solid is changing from one moment to the next. That change is coming about because of interdependence. That interdependence is suggestive of a lack of own identity. There is no room for emptiness. It's a concept about interdependence and the fact or law that dharmas have no own identity.

Emptiness (as in an absence of identity) can absolutely be directly recognized in an experiential sense. A cup that is allegedly changing from one moment to the next is not that lack of identity, but rather is an abstractive byproduct of that principle. Change is also empty, as time and the dharmins which would allegedly change (while enduring in time) cannot be found when sought.

Yes absence of identity can be experienced and infact one can make the case that without absence of identity, experience wouldn't be possible. But emptiness is a concept. Without concepts experience is naturally non-fixated - naturally non-fixated because experience and the content of experience are naturally without own identity.

[Grigoris]

@ Sherab. I'm not trolling when I post suttas. You can also see that Kalachakra talks about 'space particles'. The point is that emptiness isn't a thing or even a property. It is a concept about lack of own identity. In the same way that equality isn't a thing but a concept concerning the relatedness of one thing with another.

Posting suttas is not trolling per se. It can be considered when one has been explained something countless times (from a Mahayana perspective), has had scripture and quotes provided (from a Mahayana perspective) yet continues to cling tenaciously to and promote a view which is not from a Mahayana perspective, on a Mahayana forum. then it becomes an act of trolling.

And, just for your knowledge, emptiness (sunyata) is not a concept.

PS The Kalachakra "reference" is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
PPS The statement about "equality" is also completely irrelevant.

[Andrew108]

I have stated that interdependence is emptiness. In fact I would go as far as to say that the universe is full and that absence is refering only to the fact that whilst full, nothing in the universe has it's own identity. This is what makes the universe tick. There is no emptiness to be found. Even the vacuum of space is teeming with particles coming in and out of existance.

[Malcolm]

I have said that you have misunderstood the quotes you have posted and so I don't accept your explanation. This is my opinion. I have stated that interdependence is emptiness. In fact I would go as far as to say that the universe is full and that absence is refering only to the fact that whilst full, nothing in the universe has it's own identity. This is what makes the universe tick. There is no emptiness to be found. Even the vacuum of space is teeming with particles coming in and out of existance.

Emptiness, in a Mahāyāna context, means that phenomena do not bear the characteristics of existence, coming into existence, going out of existence, and so on. This is what conditioned production means.

"Emptiness" is a description for that absence of extremes. "Signless" is another. "Wishless" yet another.

[krodha]

Yes absence of identity can be experienced and infact one can make the case that without absence of identity, experience wouldn't be possible.

Which is why I noted that these relative occurrences are byproducts of that principle [lack of identity or arising in phenomena].

But emptiness is a concept.

Again, 'emptiness' as an enumerated notion is a concept. The direct realization however is not a concept, just as the direct taste of sugar is not a concept.

Without concepts experience is naturally non-fixated - naturally non-fixated because experience and the content of experience are naturally without own identity.

Well, 'concepts' in the context of these teachings does not mean simply 'conceptual thought'; but rather includes all abstractive fabrications that the deluded mind serves to manifest such as ideas, emotions, the five poisons, acceptance, rejection etc.

When the deluded mind is pacified (due to delusion itself being pacified through unenumerated and direct wisdom-insight), then natural non-fixation is known. Until that point however there will always be a subtle fixation present, even if one attempts to drop concepts and simply rest in a semblance of non-fixation like in objectless śamatha. Fixation will still be latently present because there has not been wisdom-insight to pacify the reference point of mind.

The fact that experience and its contents are naturally without identity is not what the teachings are concerned with. Rather, they are concerned wth knowledge or ignorance of that fact. Just because experience naturally lacks identity does not mean one possesses that knowledge. There cannot be knowledge of dharmatā without recognition.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

I have stated that interdependence is emptiness.

Tshongkhapa agrees with you. From Tshongkhapa's "Three Principal Aspects of the Path" p. 43:

Appearances are infallible dependent arisings;
Emptiness is free of assertions.
As long as these two understating (sic) are seen as separate,
One has not yet realized the intent of the Buddha.

However it should be noted that in this he departs from Chandrakirti.

In fact I would go as far as to say that the universe is full and that absence is refering only to the fact that whilst full, nothing in the universe has it's own identity.

I agree.

There is no emptiness to be found.

Found? No. Present? Yes.

You and I seem to agree on much, but our conclusions are completely opposite!