Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatra?

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zed
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Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatra?

Postby zed » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:05 am

Excuse my ignorance, but can somebody tell me what the standard Cittamatra position is with regard to an arhat at the time of no remainder?
Does he/she (it?) have any existence at all?

The reason I ask is because I'm reading a text by Shakya Chogden, who seems to say that Cittamatrins accept that the buddha-gotra (which is possessed by all beings, and which may be 'nurtured' (gsos 'debs) by different types of conditions) is just the dharmadhatu, but at the time of no remainder an arhat no longer possesses the buddha-gotra and therefore lacks the cause for attaining the buddha-kayas.

But since the dharmadhatu (= buddha-gotra) pervades all that exists, then Shakya Chogden seems to be saying that in Cittamatra an arhat without remainder has no existence whatsoever.

As far as I know, to say that according to Cittamatra, gotra = dharmadhatu is unusual (it's normally considered a Madhyamaka tenet). But is it unusual to say that in Cittamatra an arhat at the time of no remainder has no existence whatsoever?

It seems a reasonable explanation of why there are three final vehicles in Cittamatra. But is it common to say that in the Cittamatra system there nothing whatsoever at the end of the road for the Hinayana practitioners?

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Aemilius
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Aemilius » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:03 am

This question is answered several times in the writings of Vasubandhu, from different angles.
What You say sounds very nihilistic and unlike the Cittamatra that is expounded in the Lankavatara sutra: the three vehicles have no true existence, they are merely so many discriminations, -says the Lankavatara.

Lankavatara sutra, chapter two, LVI:
203. The Deva vehicle, the Brahma vehicle, the Sravaka vehicle, the Pratyekabuddha vehicle, and the Tathagata vehicle, of these I speak.
204. So long as there is a mind making conscious efforts, there can be no culmination as regards the various vehicles; when a revulsion takes place in the mind, there is neither a vehicle nor one who rides in it.
205. There is really no establishment of various vehicles, and so I speak of one vehicle; but in order to carry the ignorant I talk of a variety of vehicles.
svaha

zed
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby zed » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:24 am

Thanks, Aemilius, for your reply. The quotation for the Lankavatara suggests that the continuum of an arhat without remainder is not severed. But if all delusions have been eliminated, I wonder what cause there could possibly be for taking rebirth.

Just found something about the topic here. It represents the Gelug view.

http://www.fpmtabc.org/download/teachin ... Tenets.pdf
(See p. 61-62)

Apparently, the True Aspectarian Cittamatrins, who accept three final vehicles, say that a person's continuum is completely severed at the time of no remainder. In this respect they are like the lower schools. This is what Shakya Chogden also seems to be talking about, which is not surprising, since for him only True Aspectarians are actually Cittamatrins. He classifies False Aspecterians as Madhyamikas.

Nevertheless, I find it hard to believe that the idea that an arhat without remainder was always conceived so negatively. It seems to me more likely that there must have been some Buddhists who thought of it as some sort of real, deathless, blissful, permanent state, even if such views are not represented in the literature on tenet systems.

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Malcolm
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:56 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

zed
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby zed » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:59 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:47 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

zed
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:18 am

Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby zed » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:33 pm

Thanks again, Malcolm, for taking the time to reply. It is much appreciated.

So what you're saying is that in classical Yogacara there are three different types of natural gotra as well as those whose gotra is uncertain and those who are agotra. Fine.
And I take it that in each case, the gotra is a special feature of the six ayatanas.


But when talking about the similarities between Cittamatra and Madhyamaka, Shakya Chogden says:

"Although they [i.e., Cittamatra and Madhymaka] are similar in teaching that natural gotra is the dharmadhatu, [there are] two Madhaymaka systems, [based on] whether the nature of the dharmadhatu is or isn't the pole of experience that is luminous and aware."
[i.e., Cittamatra is like Alikakaravada in asserting something positive as the dharmadhatu, but not like Nihsvabhavavada, who asserts a non-affirming negative].

(rang bzhin gnas rigs kyi ngo bo chos dbyings la 'chad pa 'dra yang/ chos dbyings kyi ngo bo la myong a gsal rig gi cha yin pa dnag ma yin pa gnyis su 'byed ba ni dbu ma pa dag gi lugs yin dang/)

He then says:
"[They] are similar in not accepting [the existence of] beings who are cut off from the natural gotra and the buddha-essence, but there is a difference in [Cittamatra] asserting and [Madhyamaka] not asserting beings who possess the quality of never entering nirvana."

(rang bzhin gnas rigs dang sangs rgyas kyi snying po chad pa'i sems can mi 'dod pa 'dra yang/ gtan yongs su myang ngan las mi 'da' ba'i chos can gyi sems can khas len me len gyi khyad par dang/)

I understand he is saying that Cittamatrins hold natural gotra and buddha essence are the same thing and that some beings never meet the conditions that enable them to "nurture" the gotra in one of the three ways pertaining to the three vehicles.

He goes on to say:

"Although they are similar in accepting the Buddha essence at the time of no remainder, they are different in [Madhyamaka] accepting and [Cittamatra] not accepting the naturally abiding disposition exists [at that time]."

(lhag med gyi tshe sangs rgyas kyi snying po 'dod par 'dra yang/ rang bzhin du gnas pa'i rigs yod par 'dod mi 'dod kyy khyad par dang/)

"And although they are similar [in accepting] that there are no delusions at that [time of no remainder], they are a little different in [Madhyamaka] accepting the presence of causes for taking rebirth [while Cittamatra asserts their] absence."

(de na nyon mong med par 'dra yang srid par skye ba len pa'i rgyu yod med du 'dod pa'i khyad par tsm zhig las rnam par phye be yin te/)

As I understand, he is saying that in Cittamatra, the dharmadhatu of the meditator's own continuums, i.e., the pole of experience that is luminous and aware, is taken as a the support for meditation (dmigs rten), so whan that continuum is severed, as in the case of nirvana without remainder, there is no more gotra. But bodhisattvas never sever their continuums; they transform (or gradually reveal) the gotra as the dharmakaya.

In Madhyamaka, on the other hand, it is asserted that an arhat's contimuum at the time of nirvana without remainder is not severed. Although the delusional obscurations (nyon bsgrib) have been eliminated, some (or all) knowledge obscurations remain embedded in the alaya.

Reasonable interpretation? Or am I all screwed up?

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Malcolm
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:45 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

uan
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby uan » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:13 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:21 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

uan
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby uan » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:51 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:00 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

uan
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby uan » Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:42 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:06 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

uan
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:58 am

Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby uan » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:40 pm


zed
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby zed » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:46 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:42 am





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Aemilius
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Re: Does Arhat w/o remainder have any existence in Cittamatr

Postby Aemilius » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:02 am

svaha


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