Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by kirtu »

garudha wrote:
kirtu wrote:
garudha wrote: Although samsaric beings might be ignorant of this state, I suggest that Shakyamuni never once said that samsaric beings are not in this same state.
If samsaric beings are ignorant of this state then there are not in the same state. However they are capable of realizing this state.

Kirt
That's like saying "Because fish are ignorant of swimming in water - they are not swimming in water - but are capable of a swimming in water realization."
Fish are ignorant of swimming in water. It's just the environment that they live in. Flying fish probably have an expanded view but they too don't know about other environments. Their limited capabilities and perceptions limit what they can know about (so I doubt that they can have a swimming in water realization). In neither case can they know about living on land for example.

Similarly people *by themselves* cannot go beyond dualism. Most can't even have a realization of equanimity. And many cultures view universal lovingkindness and compassion as either impossible or an actual harmful view (harmful to the goals of a group) and thus discourage people from pursuing more noble states of mind.

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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by garudha »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:...when someone posts asking about a certain thing - say depression, and a bunch of the responses are something like "but there's no you to feel depressed". That kind of response is pure sophistry, as is what you are doing here.
Depression might just actually be a lethargy of the body (includes brain) of a living being. The cause might simply be bad diet or lack of exercise.

So a belief we could "cure" ourselves of bad diet or lack of exercise by following a mind-only philosophy would be misplaced.

However; where we do feel i.e suffer because of our reaction to our externalized environment I would suggest instantly trying to apprehend this feeling.

According to Doctrine of Buddhism such feelings are non-existent and cannot be apprehended.

edit: I think someone will suggest I have a shallow and superficial understanding but I seriously suggest attempting to apprehend these feelings. Personally when I've tried to find these devils they vanish although, yes, sometimes it all becomes too much and the weight of these feelings crush us. It's a challenge for all of us and I think the first thing we can do is eat good food, take exercise, break bad habits and see how we feel from there. :smile:

edit2: I think there's another thing worth mentioning. We tend to think "If I can make my external environment perfect then I'll be happy" but actually the lotus flower lives in the dirt and not clinical staleness.
Last edited by garudha on Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

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garudha wrote:
Therefore: there is no enlightenment that could be attained by samsaric beings because (i) there are no differentiated samsaric beings (ii) there are no differentiated Buddhas (iii) there are no defilements to cleanse.
That is absolute truth, relative truth is quite different! Although, just because absolute truth is true, that does not mean the relative truth is not true. They're both true.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

garudha wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:...when someone posts asking about a certain thing - say depression, and a bunch of the responses are something like "but there's no you to feel depressed". That kind of response is pure sophistry, as is what you are doing here.
Depression might just actually be a lethargy of the body (includes brain) of a living being. The cause might simply be bad diet or lack of exercise.

So a belief we could "cure" ourselves of bad diet or lack of exercise by following a mind-only philosophy would be misplaced.

However; where we do feel i.e suffer because of our reaction to our externalized environment I would suggest instantly trying to apprehend this feeling.

According to Doctrine of Buddhism such feelings are non-existent and cannot be apprehended.

edit: I think someone will suggest I have a shallow and superficial understanding but I seriously suggest attempting to apprehend these feelings. Personally when I've tried to find these devils they vanish although, yes, sometimes it all becomes too much and the weight of these feelings crush us. It's a challenge for all of us and I think the first thing we can do is eat good food, take exercise, break bad habits and see how we feel from there. :smile:
I wasn't posting about depression per se, but about using a very superficial understanding of emptiness teachings as a kind of a gag to make these somewhat pointless rhetorical arguments.

Yes, I think you have a superficial understanding because you haven't bothered learning much Dharma, and therefore you lack a basic grounding in the subject you are trying to spark debate on - non-dualism and emptiness in a Buddhist context..which is not just one thing anyway. Prajnaparamita teachings have a certain view, Dzogchen has a view etc..

I've seen this kind of thing a bunch, basically any time someone makes a claim you don't like you can say "but it's all empty so you're wrong" - this is incredibly transparent, and will not be a valid argument to even a rank beginner like me.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by krodha »

garudha wrote:According to Doctrine of Buddhism such feelings are non-existent and cannot be apprehended.
That should say: "According to Doctrine of Buddhism such feelings are ultimately non-existent and cannot be apprehended."

However if we grasp at the ultimate then all we end up doing is advocating for a nihilist view.

Jigme Lingpa calls this type of view 'being sealed by a definitive view of emptiness', it can potentially be a major deviation if uncorrected.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by garudha »

asunthatneversets wrote:
garudha wrote:According to Doctrine of Buddhism such feelings are non-existent and cannot be apprehended.
That should say: "According to Doctrine of Buddhism such feelings are ultimately non-existent and cannot be apprehended."

However if we grasp at the ultimate then all we end up doing is advocating for a nihilist view.

Jigme Lingpa calls this type of view 'being sealed by a definitive view of emptiness', it can potentially be a major deviation if uncorrected.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by Malcolm »

garudha wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:
garudha wrote:According to Doctrine of Buddhism such feelings are non-existent and cannot be apprehended.
That should say: "According to Doctrine of Buddhism such feelings are ultimately non-existent and cannot be apprehended."

However if we grasp at the ultimate then all we end up doing is advocating for a nihilist view.

Jigme Lingpa calls this type of view 'being sealed by a definitive view of emptiness', it can potentially be a major deviation if uncorrected.
Ahhh! You found the perfect book for me. Thanks so much :)

You have to understand, the dharmakāya is the mind of the Buddha, that is nondual by definition. As it says in the Avatamska:
  • The owner of the pure nondual dharmakāya
    tames all migrating beings who abide in dualism
    with the thunderous clouds of emanations.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by garudha »

Jikan wrote:
Vajrasvapna wrote:
Good quote. To complement, the consciousness of all beings is equal to this state, but ordinary beings have no awareness of this nature, while Bodhisattvas have different levels of awareness.
Indeed. I direct our friend garudha to the Srimaladevi Sutra for a straightforward exposition on this topic ^^^. There are others, of course
Actually I find this sutra confusing.

Firstly; It says Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas think, 'The duty is accomplished.'

Then it says in the Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas there are still uneliminated defilements as well as rebirth defilements.

Finally it says the three vehicles are counted as one vehicle (ekayana). By realizing the 'one vehicle' one attains the incomparable rightly completed enlightenment.

So, athough Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas have incomparable rightly completed enlightenment, there are still uneliminated defilements ?

I wonder if this "nescience entrenchment" is not the same root of consciousness (ignorance) that Shakyamuni cut, and, the same knot mentioned by Jigme Lingpa ?

What exactly is this "nescience entrenchment" ?
Approaching the Great Perfection: Simultaneous and Gradual Methods of Dzogchen Practice in the Longchen Nyingtig wrote:
This handprint of untying the knot of the central channel was made after having examined the dynamic energy of gnosis in the vast expanse.
I think most readers would presume "To know dharmakaya mind and thus dharmadhātu is surely to have already cleared all defilements" but this sutra suggests otherwise. (note I do not wish to spark a technical discussion of dharmakaya vs dharmadhātu!!!)

@ http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 0Sutra.htm
Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas think, 'The duty is accomplished.'

"Lord, they think, 'There is nothing to be known beyond this.' It is because the Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas have gained control over the defilements to be eliminated by the Arhat as well as control over the reconnections in samsara, that it occurs to them, 'There is nothing to be known beyond this.' However, the person who thinks, 'There is nothing to be known beyond this,' has neither eliminated all defilements nor avoided all rebirth. Why is that? Because, Lord, in the Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas there are still uneliminated defilements as well as rebirth defilements that have not been searched out.
That being the case, the nescience entrenchment is the greatest power; it is also called 'static kind in attraction to [supramundane] gestation.'
It has cohabited a long time with the four defilements. It cannot be erased by the knowledge of the Disciples and the Self-Enlightened. It is destroyed only by the enlightenment wisdom of the Tathagatas.
"Lord, the Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas overcame the dangers of samsara and promptly experienced the pleasure of liberation, rightly observing, 'Thus I have been liberated from the dangers of samsara and will not again experience the sufferings of samsara.' The Arhats and the Pratyekabuddhas, having realized, 'There is nothing to be known beyond this,' decided that they were in the supreme Nirvana stage of the arrested breath. Furthermore, when they so realized, they were subjects (dharmin) undeceived regarding that stage. Besides, they insisted on thinking, 'Without dependence on another, I have attained the [Nirvana] stage with remainder; I am certainly in the incomparable rightly completed enlightenment.'
"Why is that so? Because the vehicles of the Disciples and the Self-Enlightened ones are included in the Great Vehicle. Lord, 'Great Vehicle' is an expression for Buddha Vehicle. In that way, the three vehicles are counted as one vehicle (ekayana). By realizing the 'one vehicle' one attains the incomparable rightly completed enlightenment. Lord, 'incomparable rightly completed enlightenment' is an expression for the Nirvana-realm. 'Nirvana-realm' is an expression for the Dharmakaya of the Tathagata. The ultimate realization of the Dharmakaya is the One Vehicle. Lord, the Tathagata is not one thing, and the Dharmakaya something else, but the Tathagata is himself the Dharmakaya. The ultimate realization of the Dharmakaya is the ultimate of the One Vehicle. Lord, 'ultimate of the One Vehicle' is an expression for the absoluteness of the One Vehicle.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by Lotus_Bitch »

Malcolm wrote:
garudha wrote:
Now this is a big problem for me because you're implicating that sentient beings --whose minds are NOT in a state of constant non-dual awareness--...cannot achieve effortlessness until they attain this mythical "non-dual awareness".
Correct, they cannot. Why? Because they are conditioned by affliction.
Malcolm, what's the original Sanskrit or Tibetan term that "non-dual awareness" is being translated from? Do you feel this is adequate? I can't help but feel this term renders a crypto-advaitan meaning onto Buddhist teachings of dependent arising.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by krodha »

garudha wrote:What exactly is this "nescience entrenchment" ?
Ridding Oneself of the Two Sets of Obscurations in Sutra and Highest Tantra According to Nyingma and Sakya:
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... tions.html
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by dzogchungpa »

Lotus_Bitch wrote:Malcolm, what's the original Sanskrit or Tibetan term that "non-dual awareness" is being translated from?
Most likely "advaya-jñāna"/"gnyis med kyi ye shes", "gnyis su med pa'i ye shes" etc.

Edit: From the "Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism":
advayajñāna. (T. gnyis su med pa’i ye shes; C. bu’erzhi; J. funichi; K. puriji 不二智). In Sanskrit,
“nondual knowledge”; referring to knowledge that has transcended the subject-object bifurcation that
governs all conventional states of sensory consciousness, engendering a distinctive type of awareness
that is able to remain conscious without any longer requiring an object of consciousness.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by garudha »

Malcolm wrote: You have to understand, the dharmakāya is the mind of the Buddha, that is nondual by definition. As it says in the Avatamska:
  • The owner of the pure nondual dharmakāya
    tames all migrating beings who abide in dualism
    with the thunderous clouds of emanations.
Okay please let me ask you about Tathagatagarbha instead then...


@ THE LION'S ROAR OF QUEEN SRIMALA SUTRA http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 0Sutra.htm
The voidness knowledge of the Tathagatagarbha is of two kinds. These two are as follows:

"Lord, the Tathagatagarbha is void of all the defilement-stores, which are discrete and knowing as not liberated.
"Lord, the Tathagatagarbha is not void of the Buddha dharmas which are nondiscrete, inconceivable, more numerous than the sands of the Ganges, and knowing as liberated.
"Lord, the domain of omniscient knowledge which is the Dharmakaya of the Tathagata has never been seen before, even by the pure knowledge of the Disciples and the Self-Enlightened.
So (indirectly) this sutra states that there is a possible enlightenment which does not involve seeing the Tathagatagarbha. What do you make of these "Self-Enlightened" ones who have not seen and what could their attainment be like ?

In this sutra it is said:
That being so, none of the Disciples or Self-Enlightened ones have ever seen before or understood before the cessation of all suffering. The Lord has experienced it directly and understood it.
The use of past tense seems indicative of a transcendental state which has since "elapsed".
"Lord, the Tathagatagarbha is neither self nor sentient being, nor soul, nor personality. The Tathagatagarbha is not the domain of beings who fall into the belief in a real personality, who adhere to wayward views, whose thoughts are distracted by voidness. Lord, this Tathagatagarbha is the embryo of the Illustrious Dharmadhatu, the embryo of the Dharmakaya, the embryo of supramundane dharma, the embryo of the intrinsically pure dharma.
So it seems, to me, that Tathagatagarbha refers to Eternal Buddha.
Last edited by garudha on Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by kirtu »

garudha wrote: What do you make of these "Self-Enlightened" ones who have not seen and what could their attainment be like ?
The Self Enlightened are Praetyakabuddhas. They are enlightened by contemplation of the 12 links of dependent origination. They are not fully enlightened still having cognitive obscuration although their defilement is described as "half purified".

Their attainment is liberation from samsara after two uncountable eons (I think). They attain enlightenment in eons between the appearance of full Buddhas. Praetyakabuddhas live in groups or singly and generally don't teach although they inspire sentient beings through miracles.

Kirt
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by Lotus_Bitch »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Lotus_Bitch wrote:Malcolm, what's the original Sanskrit or Tibetan term that "non-dual awareness" is being translated from?
Most likely "advaya-jñāna"/"gnyis med kyi ye shes", "gnyis su med pa'i ye shes" etc.

Edit: From the "Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism":
advayajñāna. (T. gnyis su med pa’i ye shes; C. bu’erzhi; J. funichi; K. puriji 不二智). In Sanskrit,
“nondual knowledge”; referring to knowledge that has transcended the subject-object bifurcation that
governs all conventional states of sensory consciousness, engendering a distinctive type of awareness
that is able to remain conscious without any longer requiring an object of consciousness.
So this has a correlation with the "reflexive knowing" of Buddhism? I came upon this thread on svasamvedana:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=10147.

Is it correct to make this connection?
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But only a few know how to dismantle [mental clinging].
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by garudha »

Vajrasvapna wrote:I do not know for what reason are you so interested in my opinions, I'm still far from having adequate knowledge about Buddhist philosophy.
So far you've written (paraphrasing) "The Buddha just maintains his mind in a state of constant non-dual awareness" and when challenged to back it up; you posted (from a sutric level source), "Then, it is realized that mind does not exist either".

So I thnk your viewpoint is not coherent and from that incoherent viewpoint you reel off your doctrine of Buddhism.

Now if I've not properly comprehended your opinion, for example, I asked you to clarify about Niravana Sutra and dharmadhātu, then I certainly would like to know your opinion because it's possible that you're very wise and can teach me something. I certainly don't want to ignorantly dismiss some rare wisdom that you might know of. So of course I try to ferret it out of you, you see?

I see a possible danger. One ignorant person spreads the (possibly incorrect) view that "Lord Buddha was aware non-dualistically". Another ignorant person hears this assertion and thinks "Ignorant person #1 is very learned and sounds very confident, I will repeat this view like a parrot" etc etc etc.. and then it becomes like the game Telephone (aka Chinese Whispers), and people pull in sutra qoutes to support this (possibly incorrect) view of "non-dual awareness".
Vajrasvapna wrote:You can read about the Dharmadhatu here
Thanks but I do not consider Wikipedia a reliable or valid source of Buddhist knowledge. It's hard enough to even find poetic, yet accurate, translations of most sutras.
Last edited by garudha on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by Malcolm »

garudha wrote:
So (indirectly) this sutra states that there is a possible enlightenment which does not involve seeing the Tathagatagarbha. What do you make of these "Self-Enlightened" ones who have not seen and what could their attainment be like ?
These are pratyekabuddhas, and they do not realize complete buddhahood.

"Lord, the Tathagatagarbha is neither self nor sentient being, nor soul, nor personality. The Tathagatagarbha is not the domain of beings who fall into the belief in a real personality, who adhere to wayward views, whose thoughts are distracted by voidness. Lord, this Tathagatagarbha is the embryo of the Illustrious Dharmadhatu, the embryo of the Dharmakaya, the embryo of supramundane dharma, the embryo of the intrinsically pure dharma.
So it seems, to me, that Tathagatagarbha refers to Eternal Buddha.
[/quote]

Tathāgatagarbha is a synonym for the unrealized dharmakāya, etc. As I said, the mind of all buddhas is the dharmakāya. They have no other mind.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by garudha »

Do you find significant fault with the statement "The Mind if all Buddhas is Eternal Buddha" ?
Malcolm wrote:
garudha wrote:
So (indirectly) this sutra states that there is a possible enlightenment which does not involve seeing the Tathagatagarbha. What do you make of these "Self-Enlightened" ones who have not seen and what could their attainment be like ?
These are pratyekabuddhas, and they do not realize complete buddhahood.
But the The Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala sutra mentions Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas are in the incomparable rightly completed enlightenment which is the absoluteness of the One Vehicle.
"Lord, the Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas overcame the dangers of samsara and promptly experienced the pleasure of liberation, rightly observing, 'Thus I have been liberated from the dangers of samsara and will not again experience the sufferings of samsara.' The Arhats and the Pratyekabuddhas, having realized, 'There is nothing to be known beyond this,' decided that they were in the supreme Nirvana stage of the arrested breath. Furthermore, when they so realized, they were subjects (dharmin) undeceived regarding that stage. Besides, they insisted on thinking, 'Without dependence on another, I have attained the [Nirvana] stage with remainder; I am certainly in the incomparable rightly completed enlightenment.'
"Why is that so? Because the vehicles of the Disciples and the Self-Enlightened ones are included in the Great Vehicle. Lord, 'Great Vehicle' is an expression for Buddha Vehicle. In that way, the three vehicles are counted as one vehicle (ekayana). By realizing the 'one vehicle' one attains the incomparable rightly completed enlightenment. Lord, 'incomparable rightly completed enlightenment' is an expression for the Nirvana-realm. 'Nirvana-realm' is an expression for the Dharmakaya of the Tathagata. The ultimate realization of the Dharmakaya is the One Vehicle. Lord, the Tathagata is not one thing, and the Dharmakaya something else, but the Tathagata is himself the Dharmakaya. The ultimate realization of the Dharmakaya is the ultimate of the One Vehicle. Lord, 'ultimate of the One Vehicle' is an expression for the absoluteness of the One Vehicle.
Last edited by garudha on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by Malcolm »

garudha wrote:
Do you find significant fault with the statement "The Mind if all Buddhas is Eternal Buddha" ?
It is not as it Śakyamuni were one thing and dharmakāya was another. All three kāyas are inseparable.


But the The Lion's Roar of Queen Srimala sutra mentions Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas are in the incomparable rightly completed enlightenment which is the absoluteness of the One Vehicle.
"Lord, the Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas ...
This passage does not mean what you think it means. It is stating that arhats and so on mistake their realization for a final realization, but that nevertheless, their path is included in the "ekayāna". It is basically the same sentiment as in my signature. All Dharmas are included in the Dzogchen Teachings, but Dzogchen is the supreme teaching which surpasses them all.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by dzogchungpa »

Lotus_Bitch wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Most likely "advaya-jñāna"/"gnyis med kyi ye shes", "gnyis su med pa'i ye shes" etc. ...
So this has a correlation with the "reflexive knowing" of Buddhism? I came upon this thread on svasamvedana:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=10147.

Is it correct to make this connection?
From "The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism":
svasaṃvedana. (T. rang rig; C. zizheng/zijue; J. jishō/jikaku; K. chajŭng/chagak 自證/自覺). In Sanskrit, lit. “self-knowledge” or “self-awareness,” also seen written as svasaṃveda, svasaṃvit, svasaṃvitti. In Buddhist epistemology, svasaṃvedana is that part of consciousness which, during a conscious act of seeing, hearing, thinking, and so on, apprehends not the external sensory object but the knowing consciousness itself. For example, when a visual consciousness ( CAKṢURVIJÑĀNA )apprehends a blue color, there is a simultaneous svasaṃvedana that apprehends the cakṣurvijñāna; it is directed at the consciousness, and explains not only how a person knows that he knows, but also how a person can later remember what he saw or heard, and so on. There is disagreement as to whether such a form of consciousness exists, with proponents (usually YOGĀCĀRA ) arguing that there must be this consciousness of consciousness in order for there to be memory of past cognitions, and opponents (MADHYAMAKA ) propounding a radical form of nonessentialism that explains memory as a mere manipulation of objects with no more than a language-based reality. Beside the basic use of the term svasaṃvedana to explain the nature of consciousness and the mechanism of memory, the issue of the necessary existence of svasaṃvedana was pressed by the Yogācāra school because of how they understood enlightenment ( BODHI ). They argued that the liberating vision taught by the Buddha consisted of a self-reflexive act that was utterly free of subject-object distortion ( GRĀHYAGRĀHAKAVIKALPA ). In ordinary persons, they argued, all conscious acts take place within a bifurcation of subject and object, with a sense of distance between the two, because of the residual impressions or latencies ( VĀSANĀ ) left by ignorance. Infinite numbers of earlier conscious acts have been informed by that particular deeply ingrained ignorance. These impressions are carried at the foundational level of consciousness (ĀLAYAVIJÑĀNA ). When they are finally removed by the process of BHĀVANĀ , knowledge ( JÑĀNA ) purified of distortion emerges in a fundamental transformation ( ĀŚRAYAPARĀVṚTTI ), thus knowing itself in a nondual vision. Such a vision presupposes self-knowledge. In tantric literature, svasaṃvedana has a less technical sense of a profound and innate knowledge or awareness. See also RIG PA.
So it appears that there is indeed a connection between svasaṃvedana and advayajñāna for the Yogācārins.
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Re: Contesting constant non-dual awareness of Shakyamuni

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:As I said, the mind of all buddhas is the dharmakāya. They have no other mind.
Just out of curiosity, how does this square with this well-known statement from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche:
The relationship between dharmadhatu, dharmakaya and dharmadhatu wisdom is like the relationship between a place, a person and the person's mind. If there is no place, there is no environment for the person to exist in; and there is no person unless that person also has a mind dwelling in the body. In the same way, the main field or realm called dharmadhatu has the nature of dharmakaya. Dharmakaya has the quality of dharmadhatu wisdom, which is like the mind aspect.
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There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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