Dharma Cultures, Collaboration, Correction Ad-Hoc Sundry &c

[Bakmoon]

And I don't disagree fundamentally with the "However..." except to say that anger (or mind states informed by anger) can also be a motivating factor for behaviour that leads to positive outcomes. Anger at the treatment of racial minorities, leading to civil rights movements (both violent and non-violent), which gave rise to legislation banning the expression of racism and racist acts is an example which comes to mind. I am sure you can think of others.

I respectfully disagree. Anger is one of the Kleshas, and one of the three poisons. It might lead to worldly change but is spiritually damaging and should not be cultivated. If we look at many of the great champions of justice such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. or Mahatma Gandhi we find that they were moved not by anger but by compassion. Compassion can give a strength that is just as effective at creating change as anger, and gives people the persistence to keep going when anger would just collapse into vengeance or bitterness, and of course, compassion is a wholesome quality of mind which leads to great spiritual benefit.

[Karma Dorje]

And I don't disagree fundamentally with the "However..." except to say that anger (or mind states informed by anger) can also be a motivating factor for behaviour that leads to positive outcomes. Anger at the treatment of racial minorities, leading to civil rights movements (both violent and non-violent), which gave rise to legislation banning the expression of racism and racist acts is an example which comes to mind. I am sure you can think of others.

I think you are absolutely right about anger as a motivator. The problem does not lie in *feeling* anger, particularly at injustice. The problem comes in acting on that anger. The civil rights movement, Indian independence movement, later South African anti-apartheid movement, etc. were effective precisely because they did not act out of anger but out of kindness and a desire to peacefully resolve bad situations.

[Grigoris]

If we look at many of the great champions of justice such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. or Mahatma Gandhi we find that they were moved not by anger but by compassion.

Yes well, Martin Luther King... Black Panthers? Nation of Islam? George Jackson? etc...

Before Gandhi arrived on the scene (1915) there had already been a rising tide of rebellions and movements against British colonial rule starting WAY back in the late 1700's. Believing that Gandhi ended British rule is like believing that the US ended World War II.

Alongside every Jesus you will find a Barabas.

[Paul]

If we look at many of the great champions of justice such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. or Mahatma Gandhi we find that they were moved not by anger but by compassion.

Yes well, Martin Luther King... Black Panthers? Nation of Islam? George Jackson? etc...

Before Gandhi arrived on the scene (1915) there had already been a rising tide of rebellions and movements against British colonial rule starting WAY back in the late 1700's. Believing that Gandhi ended British rule is like believing that the US ended World War II.

Alongside every Jesus you will find a Barabas.

Regardless, from a Buddhist perspective to act out of anger is to act from a poisoned mental state regardless of the other aspects of the intention or outcome.

[Grigoris]

Regardless, from a Buddhist perspective to act out of anger is to act from a poisoned mental state regardless of the other aspects of the intention or outcome.

Well, I dunno... seems to me that in the Vajrayana we talk about transforming anger into discriminative wisdom rather than just saying: "Eeeeeek... look! Nasty poison anger! Run away, run away!" From a Theravada view, yes, but from a Vajrayana view...

[Johnny Dangerous]

And I don't disagree fundamentally with the "However..." except to say that anger (or mind states informed by anger) can also be a motivating factor for behaviour that leads to positive outcomes. Anger at the treatment of racial minorities, leading to civil rights movements (both violent and non-violent), which gave rise to legislation banning the expression of racism and racist acts is an example which comes to mind. I am sure you can think of others.

It isn't the anger that creates the positive outcomes in those situations though, it is the anger being channeled or transformed into something akin to a kind of secular "social Bodhicitta". Those situations are a perfect example of more enlightened thinking benefiting beings. They could (and have) just as easily been situations where the anger gets expressed in behavior that is destructive to all. So yeah, all that says is that there are skillful means to transform anger, not that anger is good.

[Paul]

Regardless, from a Buddhist perspective to act out of anger is to act from a poisoned mental state regardless of the other aspects of the intention or outcome.

Well, I dunno... seems to me that in the Vajrayana we talk about transforming anger into discriminative wisdom rather than just saying: "Eeeeeek... look! Nasty poison anger! Run away, run away!" From a Theravada view, yes, but from a Vajrayana view...

Yes, I know that. But in this case it is transformed into wisdom - not just left as plain old anger. And I really don't see that on the internet. It takes considerable insight to do this for oneself at all effectively, and it is monumentally harder to do so when talking to someone who is basically a stranger through the limited bandwidth of a forum. I have known plenty of teachers who can be wrathful with longer-time students, but they hold back with complete newcomers as it is very, very rarely appropriate. Considering how easy it is to fool oneself with this it is surely better to be restrained and play it safe.

[Grigoris]

It takes considerable insight to do this for oneself at all effectively...

I ain't gonna disagree.

[conebeckham]

It takes considerable insight to do this for oneself at all effectively...

I ain't gonna disagree.

If one wants a yardstick or means of measuring whether Anger is transformed into wisdom, one can examine the results of actions as one method.

Wisdom benefits sentient beings. Anger harms them. It's a fair bet that if someone doesn't benefit from an action, or feels hurt by an action of body, speech, or mind, then wisdom has not entered the picture. We can see this play out on Dharma fora. In a sense, this whole thread is an illustration. There is some wisdom here, I think. One must separate it from actions motivated by anger.

[SeekerNo1000003]

If one wants a yardstick or means of measuring whether Anger is transformed into wisdom, one can examine the results of actions as one method.
Wisdom benefits sentient beings. Anger harms them. It's a fair bet that if someone doesn't benefit from an action, or feels hurt by an action of body, speech, or mind, then wisdom has not entered the picture.

This is a good point. However, it is not so simple in practice. The same message may benefit some and harm others. Much depends on the listener.

[conebeckham]

This is a good point. However, it is not so simple in practice. The same message may benefit some and harm others. Much depends on the listener.

Indeed. And this is why the Buddha's words could be heard differently by different students. Here, on the internet, though, words are the same--and tone is notoriously tricky. Perhaps this is why we must be even more diligent in our communications, to avoid the angry tone, the belligerent voice. Then again, maybe someone else DOES benefit.......I doubt it, though.

[SeekerNo1000003]

This is a good point. However, it is not so simple in practice. The same message may benefit some and harm others. Much depends on the listener.

Indeed. And this is why the Buddha's words could be heard differently by different students. Here, on the internet, though, words are the same--and tone is notoriously tricky. Perhaps this is why we must be even more diligent in our communications, to avoid the angry tone, the belligerent voice. Then again, maybe someone else DOES benefit.......I doubt it, though.

Yes, I agree. This is a wonderful opportunity to practice diligence! I will try to be more diligent in answering and listening.

There is one more point to consider though & this is that straight-to-the-point answers may sometimes be misinterpreted as angry or intended to upset... and yet some of us may find them effective for learning. I do. I feel sorry for the person who exhibits such style of communication (I enjoy it, but it must be a real pain). What can such a person do?

[Bakmoon]

If we look at many of the great champions of justice such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. or Mahatma Gandhi we find that they were moved not by anger but by compassion.

Yes well, Martin Luther King... Black Panthers? Nation of Islam? George Jackson? etc...

Before Gandhi arrived on the scene (1915) there had already been a rising tide of rebellions and movements against British colonial rule starting WAY back in the late 1700's. Believing that Gandhi ended British rule is like believing that the US ended World War II.

Alongside every Jesus you will find a Barabas.

Did such violent groups exist? Yes. Is their example to be followed? I think the answer is clearly no.

Well, I dunno... seems to me that in the Vajrayana we talk about transforming anger into discriminative wisdom rather than just saying: "Eeeeeek... look! Nasty poison anger! Run away, run away!" From a Theravada view, yes, but from a Vajrayana view...

To even speak of anger as being something to be transformed into something else still means that anger is to be overcome, does it not? The method of overcoming it might be different, but it is still something to be overcome rather than something to be cultivated, correct?