Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

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thadecorrea
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Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by thadecorrea »

[Moderator's note:
This post was an answer to this very old thread: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 612#p61627
Many of those members are not active anymore. Topic split, in order to avoid confusions.]



Not sure if this discussion is still going or not, but I'd first like to say, I appreciate the responses of everyone involved. Much good stuff.

My question has more to do with the ethical, human side of this issue. (Just to be clear, I'm not speaking of "converting" anyone to anything.) I think it's easy to deal with fundamentalist beliefs in a wise way when one has no deep connection with a person. On the other hand, I think it's sometimes very hard for people who grew up fundamentalist and/or have family members / loved ones who are fundamentalists simply to avoid or remain silent on the issue, as (and this is the hard part) fundamentalism can and does lead to subtle as well as very *non* subtle forms of aggression and prejudice. Of course, I remind myself compassion is the first and most important antidote to all this. My question is, what have any of you done in situations which are more extreme? How have any of you handled, say, alienation or prejudice from loved ones simply--and quite simply--because one doesn't "fit the mold?" How have you maintained / mended / etc. important relationships with people who (mis)judge you?

I come from a fundamentalist family and love many others who are fundamentalist or so-oriented, and I recognize a lot of wounds in myself from having been raised fundamentalist. (This is nothing unique; the term "recovering fundamentalist" is very much a "thing" and even some fundamentalists themselves have begun to talk about "spiritual abuse," which is a nice way to say "abuse.") And I've seen fundamentalism hurt a whole lot of people I'm close to. It seems to me that at a certain point, compassionate action is required. Do any of you have stories / advice on dealing with the aggressive aspect of fundamentalism (which after all, its problem)? What I mean is, speaking out against the "God Hates Fags" crowd in a peaceful manner would definitely be compassionate activity if one were called to that task. But what if--and I'm saying this figuratively--the "God Hates Fags" crowd is your own family?" What is one to do with those who are convinced that there is literally one true religion and all others of "differing points of view" must not only be ignored, but forcibly silenced? And, I want to ask, how can you help, or have you helped, in situations like this?
Last edited by Ayu on Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Left a note about splitting the topic.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Fortyeightvows »

pretty soon it will be the 'god hates fags' crowd that will be forcibly silenced.
peer pressure, shaming, etc.
it seems like any one in america at least who has an opinion not in line with the liberal/left is vunerable to a public 'struggle session' in the current climate.
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

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I come from a fundamentalist family and love many others who are fundamentalist or so-oriented, and I recognize a lot of wounds in myself from having been raised fundamentalist. (This is nothing unique; the term "recovering fundamentalist" is very much a "thing" and even some fundamentalists themselves have begun to talk about "spiritual abuse," which is a nice way to say "abuse.") And I've seen fundamentalism hurt a whole lot of people I'm close to. It seems to me that at a certain point, compassionate action is required. Do any of you have stories / advice on dealing with the aggressive aspect of fundamentalism (which after all, its problem)? What I mean is, speaking out against the "God Hates Fags" crowd in a peaceful manner would definitely be compassionate activity if one were called to that task. But what if--and I'm saying this figuratively--the "God Hates Fags" crowd is your own family?" What is one to do with those who are convinced that there is literally one true religion and all others of "differing points of view" must not only be ignored, but forcibly silenced? And, I want to ask, how can you help, or have you helped, in situations like this?
On a level of personal interaction, you probably can't. There are plenty of times where you throw in the towel in that department. It's like dealing with someone with a personality disorder.

On the level of healing, it may sound funny, but you can pray for them (in the Buddhist sense of prayer), and include them in aspirations. Not in the way they often say they will pray for you...but in the sense of praying that they be free of suffering and causes of suffering etc. There is no need to feel that they need to be Buddhist, or to attach strings to your aspirational thoughts about them, just pray that their paths find them happiness, some how, some way. This is what has helped me. I was not raised in a fundamentalist family, but I was around them a lot growing up, and it left a few scars. Developing upekkha towards people who you share this kind of Karmic relationship with is real practice, painful as it may be.

Will it help them? No idea, it'll help you though.

As to wanting to correct them or change them, as one of my Dharma brothers said once of fundamentalists "someone has to be that guy"..and this is true, just let them be that guy, and keep yourself from any fallout/harm as much as possible.
What I mean is, speaking out against the "God Hates Fags" crowd in a peaceful manner would definitely be compassionate activity if one were called to that task.p
It's a big, weighty responsibility to be the guy whos 'compassionate action' is about trying to change someone else's worldview, and mete out justice. It might be worth making an honest assessment as to whether or not you are capable of doing this. If you decide you are not, then the question is actually how you are going deal with the "inner" side of the karmic situation, I think.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Ayu »

In my experience buddhist prayers can be very helpful for the people we pray for, at least in longterm view.
I think, this is because the phenomena are connected in dependent arising (emergence). If I develop compassion for the deluded situation of my aquaintances, this can become something like a butterfly effect ultimately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

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I would say, take a leaf from Mahatma Gandhi's book - non-violence. By that I mean, not debating. There is absolutely zero use discussing anything with fundamentalists. Help them out, make tea for them, treat the civilly at all times, but don't get drawn in to debates, because there can be no winners when you're arguing with fundamentalism, their only aim is to get you into their space. So be kind to them, but otherwise refuse to engage.

My wife's family are devout Christians (although they're not fundamentalist but their ideas are not mainstream). But we never discuss anything about their faith, or mine, and we get along fine.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

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Fortyeightvows wrote:pretty soon it will be the 'god hates fags' crowd that will be forcibly silenced.
peer pressure, shaming, etc.
it seems like any one in america at least who has an opinion not in line with the liberal/left is vunerable to a public 'struggle session' in the current climate.
It's becoming a strange time for people who actually believe in allowing genuine diversity of opinion.

I strongly recommend everyone in this thread listens to this interview with Sam Harris and Megan Phelps-Roper, someone who ended up leaving the Westboro Baptist Church. Their story is a lot more complicated than the "evil Christian homophobes" narrative makes it out to be.

http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/l ... the-church
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by dharmagoat »

Wayfarer wrote:There is absolutely zero use discussing anything with fundamentalists. Help them out, make tea for them, treat the civilly at all times, but don't get drawn in to debates, because there can be no winners when you're arguing with fundamentalism, their only aim is to get you into their space. So be kind to them, but otherwise refuse to engage.
:cheers:
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Matt J »

If you really want to talk to fundamentalists that are your own family members, step one is to typically learn a bit about the Bible and Christianity. I have found that the average person is woefully ignorant of their chosen religion, and usually if you educate yourself a little, you can shut down most conversations. Jesus' message was pretty much one of universal love, which many Christians appear to forget. And the Old Testament condemnation of homosexuals also prescribes strict dietary and ritual activity--- the law that Jesus came to fulfill and so on.

And remember, the internet is your friend.

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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

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Matt J wrote:If you really want to talk to fundamentalists that are your own family members, step one is to typically learn a bit about the Bible and Christianity. I have found that the average person is woefully ignorant of their chosen religion, and usually if you educate yourself a little, you can shut down most conversations. Jesus' message was pretty much one of universal love, which many Christians appear to forget. And the Old Testament condemnation of homosexuals also prescribes strict dietary and ritual activity--- the law that Jesus came to fulfill and so on.

And remember, the internet is your friend.

http://www.upworthy.com/there-are-6-scr ... really-say
This isn't bad advice. I once got myself into a little bit of trouble, though, when living in a very conservative and presumably Bible-saturated part of the US. Presumably. Because once when an acquaintance attempted to get me into a conversation deriding those whose lifestyles didn't correspond to his understanding of Biblical ways, I announced my total disgust with heretical fiber-mixers... and asked if that was a fiber-blend jacket he was wearing. (If he'd read the Old Testament, he'd know that mixing fibers is verboten.) And that I was ready to picket the local seafood restaurant for serving shrimp cocktail to register my contempt for the shrimp cocktail lifestyle. I didn't get much further before I noticed that his expression had gone to glaze. He had no idea what I was talking about.

Because he hadn't actually read the Bible. And the parts that he had read, he had read very carelessly. What he knew of Christianity came from very repetitive "praise and worship" anthems with fewer than a dozen words to them, sermons that were powerpoint presentations, and the prejudices of his parents. That's it. That's how narrow this poor person's horizons were.

For a while, I was taken in my workplace as some kind of Bible enthusiast because I knew the bits about rich people going to hell and so on. And it wasn't appreciated, because I was a contradiction: I knew the material, and I obviously didn't believe in it. That's a perplexing idea to introduce to someone with a fundamentalist viewpoint. Like explaining that Jesus was really more like Lenin than he was like FA Hayek to someone who thought McCarthy was onto something. You become Walking Cognitive Dissonance.

in the end, I've come around to Wayfarer's idea that it's important to treat fundamentalists with courtesy and respect just like everyone else, but also important not to engage them in discussions around anything about which they hold fundamentalist ideas. This includes fundamentalist Christians, of course, but also Jews, Muslims, vegetarians, Subaru enthusiasts, Trekkies--anything, really.
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Malcolm »

DGA wrote:[ This includes fundamentalist Christians, of course, but also Jews, Muslims, vegetarians, Subaru enthusiasts, Trekkies--anything, really.
And Republicans...
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

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Malcolm wrote:
DGA wrote:[ This includes fundamentalist Christians, of course, but also Jews, Muslims, vegetarians, Subaru enthusiasts, Trekkies--anything, really.
And Republicans...
Sure. Buddhists too.
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by thadecorrea »

Thanks so much to everyone who weighed in. Johnny Dangerous, I particularly liked your advice, and I've found it really helpful to practice tonglen regularly in my situation.

'll say, quickly, just to clarify, I'm not speaking of changing anyone's world-view so much as simply dealing, in an open yet compassionate manner, with the aggression that can arise when someone's point of view seems to necessitate violence against others or oneself. What do you do or have you done in a situation in which religion is being used to justify violence?

As a side-note, I think it's very true that most fundamentalists don't realize that Christianity in general is as diverse as any other group and contains in itself multiple interpretations, etc., and most don't know the Bible or the teachings of Jesus well. I've also found that it doesn't really work to say, "I understand you because I relate with Jesus' teachings too, etc." Some strict strict fundamentalists view other religions as a kind of evil, and even view the viewpoint of other Christians who don't believe as they do as suspicious.
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Malcolm wrote:
DGA wrote:[ This includes fundamentalist Christians, of course, but also Jews, Muslims, vegetarians, Subaru enthusiasts, Trekkies--anything, really.
And Republicans...
and the struggle session begins....
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by DGA »

thadecorrea wrote:'ll say, quickly, just to clarify, I'm not speaking of changing anyone's world-view so much as simply dealing, in an open yet compassionate manner, with the aggression that can arise when someone's point of view seems to necessitate violence against others or oneself. What do you do or have you done in a situation in which religion is being used to justify violence?
Depends on the violence. Is this physical violence toward a particular person, for instance? If so, then a different kind of approach is warranted from a situation where someone is creating a hostile work environment, for instance. Generally it's good to discourage people from taking violent acts. And if someone attacks you, even if they feel they are doing God's work or whatever--you have the right to get yourself out of that situation or defend yourself as appropriate.
Some strict strict fundamentalists view other religions as a kind of evil, and even view the viewpoint of other Christians who don't believe as they do as suspicious
This can be a blessing, so long as it means that the people who regard you as evil will leave you alone and not bother you.
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

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Fortyeightvows wrote:and the struggle session begins....
You know, I am a lesbian. I've been called a fag and a dyke and a queer. I bear the people who used those words no ill will. They didn't know what they were doing. They didn't know how much their words hurt. But that's precisely the problem. They didn't know. For many people like me, when we object to homophobic language and behavior, we're just trying to let you know.
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Rita_Repulsa »

Fortyeightvows wrote: pretty soon it will be the 'god hates fags' crowd that will be forcibly silenced.
There are sayings among the Right wing and conservative crowd to the effect of, "the kind of people who hate guns, war, and the military are the type of people who are the first to die [because of their own ineptitude] when there's a real conflict." I would say that the best way to deal with fundamentalists is to convert them. Faith speaks to faith. There are lesser, incomplete teachings and there are greater, complete teachings. The Buddha is the Way.

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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Fortyeightvows »

sure. and i like your way the best

i was only making an observation about culture.
really.
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

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Fortyeightvows wrote: pretty soon it will be the 'god hates fags' crowd that will be forcibly silenced.
who is being forcibly silenced? where and by whom?

The Westboro people, the equally ridiculous MRAs, any of them have the right to speak whatever they want to in the public square. (in the US at least.) so long as they don't shout "fire" in a crowded theater. That's free speech. Similarly, people who disagree with them are free to dissent, reject, critique, negate, ridicule... again, so long as they don't shout "fire" in a crowded theater. that, also, is free speech.

To go to the Westboro example: they are free to act like total cretins at other people's funerals. And concerned members of the community are free to speak out against this cretinous behavior. Who is doing the silencing? Who is forcing anyone to do anything?
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Paul »

DGA wrote:
Fortyeightvows wrote: pretty soon it will be the 'god hates fags' crowd that will be forcibly silenced.
who is being forcibly silenced? where and by whom?
You are aware of the bizarre anti free speech goings on in universities at the moment, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGnNKmR ... u.be&t=920

It wouldn't matter what these nutters did if they weren't in institutions that contribute greatly to the creation of cultural and political discourses that end up as government policy and the general political framework we all have to live in.
To go to the Westboro example: they are free to act like total cretins at other people's funerals. And concerned members of the community are free to speak out against this cretinous behavior.
I have always been impressed by the adherence to the 1st amendment when it comes to dealing with the WBC. BTW, if you didn't listen to the interview by Sam Harris and the woman who left the WBC I really recommend you do. It's fascinating.

http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/l ... the-church
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: Dealing with Christian Fundamentalists, Part 2

Post by Fortyeightvows »

i'm not of fan of any extreme.
buddha teaches the middle way
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