Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
dazdaryl
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 am

Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by dazdaryl »

Hi, I've had a strong interest in the occult for a long time, and I'm also a Buddhist, I'm most heavily influenced by Chinese thought.

Some of the practices in the occult that I use include things such as storing emotional energy away for later use, this might be good or bad energy.

In western occultism, the 4 ArchAngels are summoned as guardians in the case of summoning spiritual entities or returning them to the earth. Sometimes these entities are demonic. It would be valid for you to advise against summoning demonic entities, however in occultism even fairly normal habits such as anger or frustration can be exorcised from the magician practitioner and then sent into the earth. Some magicians might choose to simply dissolve this energy, others might choose to store it away for self-defense.

I want to know what would be most appropriate for a Buddhist to replace the 4 ArchAngels with, I was thinking that the 5 Wisdom Kings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_King seem like an obvious example, then there is Yama, GuanYu, DiZhang and many other figures of power that might be appropriate.

If you want an example of western occultism then have a look at this book called the goetia: http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/goetia.htm
Generally speaking the magician will exorcise a negative force from themselves, ask it it's name, perhaps get a seal from it and use that to summon or dispel that spirit in the future, some people might use that energy to curse people.

This also relates to the occult field of psionics, many psionics don't use a diety in their work and rely on pure focus, however I'd like to integrate a certain level of Buddhism into the practice because, lets say for example somebody pisses me off and I feel like throwing a charge of negative energy at them, in the short-term might appease me, but that's not very nice. So I'd rather have a Buddhist deity to act like an attendant to buffer such knee-jerk reactions.

Also the flip side of this is the positive energy, I don't want to drain myself when performing reiki or other healing work and like wise I need a buddhist deity in this instance prevent me loosing all my energy.

I used to use DiZhang / Ksitigarbha for these practices, but I'm interested as to what people have to say so that I might improve this practice.

I do have some books about this subject, but most of the important information is still in Chinese.
Vasana
Posts: 2231
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Vasana »

dazdaryl wrote:I want to know what would be most appropriate for a Buddhist to replace the 4 ArchAngels with, I was thinking that the 5 Wisdom Kings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_King seem like an obvious example, then there is Yama, GuanYu, DiZhang and many other figures of power that might be appropriate.
You don't necessarily need to 'replace' them with anything. If you have a working relationship with the 4 archangels then there's no point in abandoning them. However you should familiarize yourself with Tara and Avalokiteshvara.

I've often tried to work out how the Christian /Abrhamic pantheon ties in to the Buddhist cosmological world view, but my main guess now is that there are many, many kinds of heavenly /Deva realms that may or may not have any contact with each other.
This also relates to the occult field of psionics, many psionics don't use a diety in their work and rely on pure focus, however I'd like to integrate a certain level of Buddhism into the practice because, lets say for example somebody pisses me off and I feel like throwing a charge of negative energy at them, in the short-term might appease me, but that's not very nice. So I'd rather have a Buddhist deity to act like an attendant to buffer such knee-jerk reactions.

I personally reccomend that you look in to the life story and songs of the tibetan Mahasiddha /saint , Milarepa.
He came from a black-magic /sorcery background and could summon hailstorms and all sorts of things and did so for revenge at one point. He eventually met his Guru/teacher Marpa and after eventually being accepted by him as a student , attained complete enlightenment in one life and displayed all kinds of magical feats along the way when necessary. I really think you would personally benefit from learning about him and reading his many songs if the interest of magic is what has led you to the Dharma.

Generally ,throwing a charge of negative energy at anyone will only cause accumulative painful situations to yourself in the long run
Also the flip side of this is the positive energy, I don't want to drain myself when performing reiki or other healing work and like wise I need a buddhist deity in this instance prevent me loosing all my energy.
There's a thread on this forum about the possible connection between Reiki and buddhism which you might like to have a look over.
Chenrezing /Avalokireshvara and Tara seem like they would be good choices for this, although ultimately, mastery of reiki really entails just learning as much as you can about your subtle body and studying and practicing various forms of yoga for a long to time to master the flow of energy. To think one is a 'master' just because of a certificate is naive.

The majority of the people hear dismiss Reiki because of how insincere it's image appears among the new age communties but are comfortable with the idea of Siddhas and yogics in the past utilizing their control over prana and the elements for healing and other feats.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
User avatar
Karma_Yeshe
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:47 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Karma_Yeshe »

Vasana wrote: The majority of the people hear dismiss Reiki because of how insincere it's image appears among the new age communties but are comfortable with the idea of Siddhas and yogics in the past utilizing their control over prana and the elements for healing and other feats.
Not only in the past. There are a lot of things one can learn and apply for the long term benefit of sentinent beings in Vajrayana. But they should be learned from a teacher and they usually require some prerequisites.

All the best
Karma Yeshe
Vasana
Posts: 2231
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Vasana »

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Vasana wrote: The majority of the people hear dismiss Reiki because of how insincere it's image appears among the new age communties but are comfortable with the idea of Siddhas and yogics in the past utilizing their control over prana and the elements for healing and other feats.
Not only in the past. There are a lot of things one can learn and apply for the long term benefit of sentinent beings in Vajrayana. But they should be learned from a teacher and they usually require some prerequisites.

All the best
Karma Yeshe
Yep, not only in the past but to this day. You don't need* to practice Vajrayana to learn and worth with prana -think yoga, tai-chi,qi-gong etc. Of course learning from people who have a higher degree of energetic mastery is the most effective and safest way to learn.

*but Vajrayana /Yantra Yoga does probably have the most advanced systematization of methods & practices for it.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
dazdaryl
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 am

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by dazdaryl »

Thanks Vasana,

After a bit of research it seems fairly acceptable for me to use the 5 wisdom kings, yama or guanyu.

So I can replace the usage of the ArchAngels with the images of wrathful Buddhas, such as the wisdom kings. I never used the ArchAngels because I don't like that religion, but I wanted to replace them with something from Buddhism so that I could do the ritual and incorporate it into my QiGong ritual.

In my experience deities/Buddha's etc are tools to focus the intent of the practitioner, I would not say they are limited to the imagination of the practitioner, I have had a lot more success in invoking deities that are actively being energized through prayer in the world around me.
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Jesse »

I advise a strong dose of reality. Living in fantasy land for a while can do a number on you.
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
dazdaryl
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 am

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by dazdaryl »

I advise a strong dose of reality. Living in fantasy land for a while can do a number on you.
There is nothing about this that isn't reality.

Psychological pain manifests itself as pain in the body, through meditation you can question yourself about it, visualize it coming out of your body and try to confront that issue, and in the end you have to make a choice about how you will deal with that issue. The usage of archetypes allows a person to think and feel things outside their own ego, it's a classic case of "what would Jesus do?", except we aren't Christians and like us Christians have deities and saints for separate occasions.

Also there is nothing "magical" or supernatural when people throw passive aggressive negative energy at each other all the time, even the most devout skeptic or atheist can tell when a person is being passive aggressive, but it's very difficult to pinpoint how we know that a person is being passive aggressive and the easiest way to describe it is with the metaphor of energy. Sometimes it is even possible to sense a passive aggressive attitude when a person is not in the same room.

I've also experienced several instances with energy where the energy seemed very tangible, and I've tested this with people often describing a sensation of heat coming from my hands. I've also found reiki to be very useful in treating irritable bowl syndrome, originally I used it on myself, I focused on moving energy around my abdomen and then I felt a bit better and went to the toilet, I put it down to it encouraging the subtle muscles in my intestines which I cannot feel or control to operate, then I discovered it also seemed to work when I did it to other people.

The usage of deities in the meditation ritual adds a layer of security to the experience, like if you accidentally walk into the negative energy or do something out of correct order.

Yes, there is a certain danger of people becoming a little bit mental and over-excited by this whole issue, I ground my understanding in what is going on in modern science, psychology and the Chinese medicine when ever I can. Although sometimes I have no idea how energy fits into science, and by energy I am talking about Qi 气 .

I don't limit myself to what I understand, I don't understand everything about cars but I can still drive one. I have an interest in energy, so sometimes I give things a go, and then I reflect upon my results.
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Jesse »

dazdaryl wrote:
I advise a strong dose of reality. Living in fantasy land for a while can do a number on you.
There is nothing about this that isn't reality.

Psychological pain manifests itself as pain in the body, through meditation you can question yourself about it, visualize it coming out of your body and try to confront that issue, and in the end you have to make a choice about how you will deal with that issue. The usage of archetypes allows a person to think and feel things outside their own ego, it's a classic case of "what would Jesus do?", except we aren't Christians and like us Christians have deities and saints for separate occasions.

Also there is nothing "magical" or supernatural when people throw passive aggressive negative energy at each other all the time, even the most devout skeptic or atheist can tell when a person is being passive aggressive, but it's very difficult to pinpoint how we know that a person is being passive aggressive and the easiest way to describe it is with the metaphor of energy. Sometimes it is even possible to sense a passive aggressive attitude when a person is not in the same room.

I've also experienced several instances with energy where the energy seemed very tangible, and I've tested this with people often describing a sensation of heat coming from my hands. I've also found reiki to be very useful in treating irritable bowl syndrome, originally I used it on myself, I focused on moving energy around my abdomen and then I felt a bit better and went to the toilet, I put it down to it encouraging the subtle muscles in my intestines which I cannot feel or control to operate, then I discovered it also seemed to work when I did it to other people.

The usage of deities in the meditation ritual adds a layer of security to the experience, like if you accidentally walk into the negative energy or do something out of correct order.

Yes, there is a certain danger of people becoming a little bit mental and over-excited by this whole issue, I ground my understanding in what is going on in modern science, psychology and the Chinese medicine when ever I can. Although sometimes I have no idea how energy fits into science, and by energy I am talking about Qi 气 .

I don't limit myself to what I understand, I don't understand everything about cars but I can still drive one. I have an interest in energy, so sometimes I give things a go, and then I reflect upon my results.
And all your grounding will just end up feeding your delusions. Trying to balance magic with modern world philosophies and science just doesn't work. Trying to play with magic and energy will send you mental 99,9% of the time. I'd go so far as to say there's few to none who can do it without harming themselves. Best just to be amused by passive notices of shit, coincidences and leave it at that.

If there's actually anyone out there who can control their telepathy, 'energy', or anything else. I'll eat my words. It just doesn't happen.
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
User avatar
Karma_Yeshe
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:47 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Karma_Yeshe »

Jesse wrote: If there's actually anyone out there who can control their telepathy, 'energy', or anything else. I'll eat my words. It just doesn't happen.
I think it is much better if you control your energy than the other way around, isn't it?

KY
Vasana
Posts: 2231
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Vasana »

dazdaryl wrote:Thanks Vasana,

After a bit of research it seems fairly acceptable for me to use the 5 wisdom kings, yama or guanyu.

So I can replace the usage of the ArchAngels with the images of wrathful Buddhas, such as the wisdom kings. I never used the ArchAngels because I don't like that religion, but I wanted to replace them with something from Buddhism so that I could do the ritual and incorporate it into my QiGong ritual.

In my experience deities/Buddha's etc are tools to focus the intent of the practitioner, I would not say they are limited to the imagination of the practitioner, I have had a lot more success in invoking deities that are actively being energized through prayer in the world around me.
Dazdaryl - It doesn't entirely work like that. You don't just get to 'pick and choose' a wrathful deity. The only way you can form any meaningful or practical connection with a wrathful deity is if you get the transmission to practice that deity from a teacher qualified to give that practice. I'm not sure you know what the wrathful deities actually embody at this point either. A wiki page here and there won't give you the whole contextual run-down.

The wrathful deities and guardians are wrathful towards our destructive and afflictive behaviors and towards those that cause obstruction to the dharma. It's entirely a good thing that you have this interest in them, i just hope you take your time and actually learn about the profoundity of what it is you're getting involved with.

You have to ask yourself some serious questions -

Are you aware of impermanence? impermanence of physical form,sensations thoughts, emotions, relationships, people ?
Are you aware that one day you will die? What do you perceive to happen to your mental-continuum at the time of death?
Are you aware of the ways in which you personally suffer? Physicaly, mentally, emotionally?
Are you aware of the ways in which those around you suffer?
Would you like to help any of them and be more and more able to help others as time go's on?

Do you believe that the duality between 'good' and 'evil' is an ultimate truth or just a conventional truth?

Don't just answer these questions off the top of your head. think about them for quite some time then recognize you have access to teachings that surpass all of our worldly mundane concerns for this life alone.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Jesse »

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Jesse wrote: If there's actually anyone out there who can control their telepathy, 'energy', or anything else. I'll eat my words. It just doesn't happen.
I think it is much better if you control your energy than the other way around, isn't it?

KY
Telepathy is something passive that we all experience, there's no way to control it anymore than you can control any of your passive thoughts and I'd say any talk of energy systems, chakras, etc is just completely nonsensical. People who talk about controlling these thing's are just indulging in fantasies, I've seen it, done it and it's really just dumb.

Just because you can make yourself euphoric by concentrating doesn't mean you've 'manipulated' energy, it means your hyper-focused and concentrated. Relieving pain is nothing more than placebo(Not to say placebo isn't cool) but it still has nothing to do with energy. I've even heard people say it has something to do with enlightenment, which is even dumber. There's a ton of sects that don't do anything with energy, and yet have supposedly had plenty of enlightened people in their traditions.

So I'm saying, you don't manipulate energy. You can believe a lie all you want, it won't make it come true.
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
dazdaryl
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 am

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by dazdaryl »

Everyone seems to be getting a little bit over excited.

What I'm talking about isn't that far removed from the QiGong you see little old ladies doing in the park on a Sunday morning.

Most of my occult work thus far has really about enhancing the imaginative experience of daydreaming and establishing a sense of sub-conscious focus, that is to say that I am fortifying my intent to do something. I don't claim to have extra dimensional powers, be able to make blood rain from the sky or effect the results of the lottery.

One time I decided that all this energy work was "bullshit" and I had a bad day, as I walked down the road there was a couple of people eating some food and I sort of sucked the energy from the food away, then they looked at me and realized what I did and I sort of did it out of anger thinking it wouldn't work. I think there is more danger rejecting the existence of an energy once a person has become initiated to it, at times I have become passive aggressive and thrown negative energy at people with the excuse "it doesn't matter, it's not real anyway", well it is real and that's not a good thing to do and people don't like it, so I want to bring someone like GuanYin into my life to help me in my relations with people. I'm not the worlds worst passive aggressive than most, but it's an easy example.

Another time I grabbed energy when I was much younger at a meal and my dad said to me "don't take the taste from the food!". Another time I was at a Japaneses restaurant and we knew the chef so he invited us to meet the staff and one of the staff was practicing some sort of energy work in the kitchen, I saw he had some ball of Qi happening and having not seen such things before I ran up to him, focused on the Qi and took it then ran away, my dad looked at me and said "don't run away with that", so I ran back over to the Qi practitioner and it returned.

All these circumstances had other observers and they are far from the only situations I have experienced that indeed some sort of energy does exist, and the existence of Qi is not considered radical or supernatural in China. I don't know what it is at a fundamental level, I don't know what sound or light is it at a fundamental level but that doesn't stop me from talking or seeing.

Also, sometimes it is possible to know a persons interests without them saying anything, like sometimes you can just tell that a person has an interest in for example cars, I do this all the time when I meet people, I scan then, I think of a word in my head like "cars" or "rock and roll" or something and see if I get an energetic feedback, this isn't some magic process and I usually do it very quickly, it's totally normal and I have no idea how it works, I just say it's probably some body language thing.
The only way you can form any meaningful or practical connection with a wrathful deity is if you get the transmission to practice that deity from a teacher qualified to give that practice.
I don't agree, religion tries to insert it's own agenda when it comes to energy work, I've seen people argue that this energy is proof of the soul, and people say that it is proof that there is no soul and we are all one with the universe.

In answer to your question however I'll just say the Four Dharma Seals and the Four Noble Truths, is my answer to that. I don't have time to write several paragraphs on that.
I'm not sure you know what the wrathful deities actually embody at this point either. A wiki page here and there won't give you the whole contextual run-down.
I can agree with that, so for the time being I'm just going to focus on the basics, the blue skin, the expression, the important fact that they are dharmic Bodhisattvas, wrathful manifestations of truly kind and compassionate beings, not wayward evil spirits or something that would go around hurting people or some sort of hungry ghost.

If there's actually anyone out there who can control their telepathy, 'energy', or anything else. I'll eat my words. It just doesn't happen.
I think everything I've said already answers this question and I don't really see the point of you preaching your skepticism, if you want to experience the energy go and find a taiqi/qigong/falungong class and go do it for yourself, everybody works with energy every day even if they don't notice it and it is as subtle as sensing the correct behavior in social interactions or sensing that someone is not trust worthy, it doesn't mean I need to throw a fireball at you to prove it or something absurd. It has exceptional value to me, even just as a metaphysical tool, so there will be no "proving" it doesn't exist, in the same way that I would not cease to be a Buddhist if someone to prove that Shakyamuni Buddha did not physically exist.
dazdaryl
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 am

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by dazdaryl »

Vasana, I'll put more effort into answering your questions a bit later if I have time.

I'm not going to waste any more time with Jesse, I knew I should have put a disclaimer on the original post that I didn't want to hear from anyone who doesn't believe in the Qi.
User avatar
Adamantine
Former staff member
Posts: 4027
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
Location: Space is the Place

Re: Converting western esoterica into Buddhism

Post by Adamantine »

dazdaryl, after reading your post here and your interest in the practice
I'd highly recommend looking into the 5 Dhyani Buddhas / which in Tantra relate to the
5 primordial wisdoms which are the purified aspect of the 5 poisons/obscuring emotions. These are
precisely about working with ones emotional energies. There are also 5 wrathful aspects of each of the
5 Buddhas that are more intense and powerful if the peaceful manifestations don't get the job done.
They are the 5 great Herukas. These are the essential aspect of the Bardo Thodol teachings known as the
Tibetan Book of the Dead as well.

You would probably find the practice of Chod interesting for working with unruly emotions and manifestations of gods and demons as well. They also work with these 5 primordial energies but in the feminine principal of Dakini. And Tsultrim Allione has adapted the practice as well to make it more accessible to Westerners in the form of creative visualizations which are akin to the practice you
have connected with. Probably worth looking at her book Feeding Your Demons. http://www.amazon.com/Feeding-Your-Demo ... 0316013137
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”